ࡱ> o@ bjbj p p 8ooxxxxxxxltttt lX$R`xxx6///xx//(/WxxW @.ƠtWdXWL.LWPxxxxLxW,f v$/lld% ll ATTENTION: Copyright The Vietnam Archive at Texas Tech University. Fair use criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. The following materials can be used for educational and other noncommercial purposes without the written permission of the Vietnam Archive at Texas Tech University. These materials are not to be used for resale or commercial purposes without written authorization from the Vietnam Archive at Texas Tech University. All materials cited must be attributed to the Vietnam Archive at Texas Tech University. Vietnam Archive Oral History Project Interview with Frank Bonansinga Conducted by Stephen Maxner April 16, 2001 Transcribed by Tammi Mikel and Reccia Jobe NOTE: Text included in brackets [ ] is information that was added by the narrator after reviewing the original transcript. Therefore, this information is not included in the audio version of the interview. Steve Maxner: This is Steve Maxner, conducting an interview with Mr. Frank Bonansinga on the 10th of April, 2001, at approximately 12 noon Lubbock time. I am in Lubbock, Texas and Mr. Bonansinga, why dont you tell us where you are? Frank Bonansinga: Im in Indio Hills, California which is about 15 miles outside of Palm Springs up at around 1000 feet and looking out and I can see Palm Springs about 25 miles away. SM: Why dont we begin today by talking a little bit about your early life, in particular when and where you were born, and where you grew up? FB: I was born the 28th of July, 1928. My dad was a full-blooded Italian, born in this country, and my mother was Norwegian and I was born in Sioux City, Iowa and spent five years there. My mother kept a baby book and I read it and it said that, He looks up at airplanes and giggles and laughs, and that sort of thing, so there must have been something there. As a baby, my mothers aunt used to take me out to watch the barn stormers. I dont remember this but it was done quite often and apparently this could have had something to do with my early desire to fly because thats all I ever wanted to do. I read Big Little books which was the forerunner of the comic book about Tailspin Tommy and listened to the radio all the time as a boy growing up, that sort of thing. SM: Were there any radio programs that had an emphasis on flying? FB: Yes, Jimmy Allen was one, Tailspin Tommy and Jimmy Allen. I remember listening to that, and then when we moved during the Depression we moved from Sioux City out to Los Angeles in 1935. I remember my folks taking me to the [Orphium] Theater to see Jimmy Allen who was a young radio star and I saw him in person, and then shortly thereafter on April 21, 1935 - the reason I know that is I have a picture of me, its Easter Sunday - and I had my first airplane ride in an open cockpit, and Im sitting in the front seat with the goggles and helmet on with my Aunt Letha and I remember that flight quite well. I was not yet seven, and of course that was a joy. SM: What year was this again? FB: That was April 21st, 1935. It was just before my seventh birthday and I got to go upI believe they let me go up twice and I didnt fly again until I was in high school. My folks took me towe got to go see the Cleveland Air Races that were held in Los Angeles in 1935 or 36 and I remember the parachutes and the races and the racers. It was a pylon race, and of course that was quite impressive, but probably the biggest single event as a child about aviation had to do in 1936 or 37, I cant remember exactly when, Jimmy Doolittle who was vice president of Shell Oil Company flew into the parking lot there at the corner of Fairfax where the Gilmore Stadium, [auto, midget cars] racing stadium, used to be and there was a big auditorium there called the Pan Pacific Auditorium and they opened up a huge hanger and the planes went in there and there was an exhibit, and my mother was working there and my dad and mother, somehow, someway, I got to meet Jimmy Doolittle and he gave me his picture, autographed picture, and signed it, and gave me a penlight. In fact Im looking at his picture right now. Its on the side of the wall in mywhere Im in this room. That was a very big thing to me and of course later when he bombed Tokyo in April of 1942 and I told all the kids at school I knew him, they didnt quite believe me. SM: Did you bring your picture in to show them? FB: Oh no, no, I didnt have it. I mean, I was at boarding school then and the picture was at home. SM: Do you remember if he had any words of encouragement for you? FB: I really dont. He did, of course, but he wouldnt remember me. He just signed an autograph, a nice letter sized autograph with him sitting on the cockpit in his flight suit and helmet and goggles and of course later on in life I became an experimental test pilot and he was an honorary member and I wrote him and thanked him very much for his influence and got a nice letter back. SM: Very nice. FB: Oh, one thing I probably should mention is my dad took me to see Hells Angels, the Howard Hughes million dollar movie which a million dollars back then was an awful lot of money, and I remember that movie quite well, that and Tarzan are the first two movies I remember. Of course there were a lot of serials about flying that we kids, we all saw every Saturday, World War I dogfights and that sort of thing and Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon was justwe all loved it, but it was impossible. Nothing like that could happen, of course, and heroes, besides Jimmy Doolittle of course, and Charles Lindbergh and that sort of thing. So, I had everything and my dream was to fly as a little boy. SM: When you said you went away for boarding school, was this for your high school years? FB: No, we moved to New Orleans. We spent two years in Los Angeles, and then my dad got a job in New Orleans in 1937 I believe it was, and we moved to New Orleans, and my mom and dad split up and I ended up going to the Christian Brothers Boys School called St. Pauls in Covington, Louisiana and thats where I went to school and loved it and graduated from there in 1945. While I was there, they hadI was a member of what they called the Civil Air Patrol, the CAP they called it and we wore a little uniform, wore khakis. I remember we carved out balsa wood, we carved out models of planes for the Army Air Corps it was called then and the Navy for identification type thing. I got to fly once in an Army L-19 I believe it was when I was at St. Pauls. All kids, all of us, used to build model airplanes out of balsa wood, rubber band powered, and that was a lot of fun. After we got tired of them wed stick a match into them and let them go off the side of the building and crash. That was the way it was, you know, you crashed and burned! The only other movie, two other flying movies I really remember was Dawn Patrol which was a World War I movie with Errol Flynn and Ralph Bone, and then of course Test Pilot was another movie I liked a lot and I remember. My parents both smoked, everybody smoked back in those days, nobody really thought much about it, and right before the war started they were smoking Wings cigarettes and theyd smoke those Wings cigarettes and Id get the pictures. In fact, Ive got 91 separate individual pictures of aircraft that are really aI dont know how much of a collectors item they are, but to me theyre wonderful. SM: These came with the packs of cigarettes? FB: One per pack of cigarettes, and so Ive got them. That is pretty much my early life. I was just an average student, real good in history, and I graduated when I was 16 because in those days when I first went to grade school in Louisiana and lots of places down south they only had seven grades in grade school so I went to high school as a 13 year old and graduated when I was 16. So, I waited until my 17th birthday in July of 45 to join theto fly. SM: Thats when you volunteered to join the Navy? FB: Yes, I wanted to become an Army Air Corps pilot like Lindbergh and Rickenbocker and Jimmy Doolittle, but when I went down to the federal building on my birthday, the only program that was open was the Naval Aviator V-5 program and of course I wanted to fly, didnt make an awful lot of difference. I didnt know anybody in the Navy or know anything about it but I took the test that day and fortunately passed. SM: Well, was history your favorite subject in school? FB: I guess it was. I was for some reason very good. I won the history medal and thats about the only thing I won. I did win the high hurdles at St. Pauls which is amazing, I won the state high hurdles so I had a four year scholarship to go to LSU but I didnt. I went to Tulane. Typing was the best thing I evermost useful thing, other than obviously reading, writing, and arithmetic. The fact that I took typing as a senior in high school, Im really grateful for that because that has really paid off in life, especially now with a computer. SM: Was track and field the only sport you engaged in? FB: I was pretty good asI was 510 and and weighed 135 pounds which is really skinny. I put on a pound a year for the last 60 years so I weigh about 200 pounds. But, fortunately I have a very long body and short legs, and thats why its so amazing I won the high hurdles. No, I was a goodmy best sport was basketball. I was a very good basketball player considering. I learned to do a jump shot and Id heard about it and I was the first one to do a jump shot back then [at St. Pauls] and I was very good. In football at this little school, at the school I went to I was only 16 in my class all boys and I used to tell them I was fifth in my class. Of course I never told them out of 16 of us, but I was good in football. I made right end, they called it end then, and I only caught one pass in my senior year for a touchdown, but I got to play both offense and defense and thats the way it was back then. Then, we didnt have baseball so football, basketball, and track I lettered in. In fact, I even lettered in track my first year as a freshman which wasI was fast, but not that fast! SM: What do you remember most about growing up during the Depression years? FB: Well the Depression, we didnt think anything of it other than the fact that I can remember an awful lot of things. We used to call them bums, thats what you used to call people that came around, and theyd put like a little X on the house, and I remember they came to our house often because momma would always give them a sandwich or something. Things were tough, but we learned to do things for ourselves, like we made our own toys. I made my own kites and flew them and I made, as I told you, model airplanes. We carved tops. We walked to the movies and I think the boys, I got a job when I was a little kid in California selling Liberty Magazines. I remember they were a nickel. The kids, I think they had to become much more reliant, self reliant, when things were tough. Thats what I remember. I do remember my mom and dad and my grandparents talking about the day Roosevelt closed the banks. They called it a bank holiday. But, I certainly think in the long run we were most fortunate to grow up in the depression when you come right down to it. We learned toI think we had to fend for ourselves and money wasnt the most important thing, it was working to have a job. Thats the way I felt all my life. I never did really fly for money, never even thought about it. SM: Well you mentioned earlier that your mother would give hobos or bums sandwiches and there was an X that was marked on your house? FB: Im not going to say there was an X but we had heard that they would mark an X for something that needed something to eat. SM: In other words, it was known amongst the small community of hobos or bums or whatever you want to call them? FB: No, no, this is just every now and then somebody would come by the house. It was just a normal thing in those days. One thing I think I should mention, in California which was really something, I just thought of it, too; when my dad would buy gas, I remember hed stop, there was a filling station next to what they called La Brea Tar Pits in California, in Los Angeles, and this filling station had a World War I bomber parked in its lot and my dad would stop there so I could go up and play inside it. SM: It was open so anybody could go in? FB: Oh yeah. SM: Lets see, and then when you graduated from high school and waited a year, what did you do during that year? Is that when you sold Liberty Magazines? FB: No, I sold Libertys when I was about six or seven years old. During World War II and vacation I worked as a machinist. My uncle, my moms brother, Lloyd D. Hardy up in Sioux City, he had General Motors car dealership and of course they all closed during the war so they went into making parts for the military and his particular plant/office made reamers for .75 millimeter shells, which a reamer is the tool that goes on the inside of the shell and reams it out so they can put the explosives in. So, we were making reamers and I went up there two summers and I was making .25 cents an hour the first year and I think I made a few dollars more, but it was a lot of money then, and Id learned how to run a lathe and weld and use internal cylindrical grinders, so I loved it and I saved a few dollars. So, we worked. You got to work in those days and there was no such things as laws or anything like that. Then just before I graduated in May of 45 and I wouldnt be 17 until July 28th so in that period I worked as a helper in New Orleans for a refrigeration company and I was just a go-for. I just carried this toolbox around but we went onthe Navy ships out of Algiers would sail down the Mississippi and out to the South Pacific and their scuttlebutts, or water fountains as theyre called in the Navy, would need to be serviced along with all the ones down in the engine room where it was over 100 degrees all the time, it was a continuous thing, and then sometimes you went onthose were destroyers and ships like that, and sometimes we went on the concrete Kaiser ships and they were hot, hot, hot. So, we had a full time job repairing these refrigeration units with freon and that sort of thing. Thats what I did until I wentuntil I was old enough and my mother signed for me so I could become a Naval aviator because I was underage. SM: What did she think about you wanting to become a Naval aviator? FB: I really didnt care what I was in. I wanted to be, like I said, an Army Air Corps pilot because of Rickenbocker, Lindbergh, and Doolittle, but I was glad to get into anything so I could fly. SM: I mean your mom, what did she think? FB: Oh no, she didntshe knew I was an airplane nut. I mean, my mom and dad both knew it and there was no problem there. They signed and I went into the [Navy]I waited to be called and incidentally two college students took the exams with me and they both failed. I had picked up a book, a large type manual that cost a couple bucks back then and studied it for two months to help pass the test and Im sure that helped, too, because the tests were very comprehensive in the words and English and mathematics and physics and that sort of thing, so Im sure that helped me. And, of course passing the physical I had no problem. I was light. I only weighed 135 pounds, but skinny of course, but a lot of us were skinny then. I noticed on my physical they put down build and they put down athletic and I thought, Wow! SM: What month in 1945 was this when you went down FB: On my birthday, the 28th of July, and about two weeks later why the bomb dropped and the war was over. So, I figured when World War II was over they wouldnt want me anymore and I really wasnt that worried. I was kind of disappointed, I know that sounds awful, but I wanted to be a militaryI wanted to learn to fly, so I couldnt believe it, I got orders. In those days they had a big sign that says, Join the Navy, and see the world, and where did they send me? They sent me a mile from my house to Tulane. So, I got on a streetcar and went to Tulane and we were in uniform. I was an apprentice seaman, B-5, along with 600 others, and we lived in the gym, in a basketball gymnasium, a whole bunch of us. The food was good, plenty to eat, and I went to college there and made it through; it wasnt easy. I played a lot of bridge and was playing basketball and playing track and wasnt getting the best grades, but I passed it. I made it through college so that I was sent to pre-flight in June of 1947. SM: What did you major in in college? FB: We didnt major in anything. We had a two year arts and science class, and I did take meteorology which I liked and astronomy. They had an observatory. Those two things I really liked, and of course I did well in mechanical drawing because Id just had it at St. Pauls and it was identical to the course I took. But, I had to get through theTulane was not easy, and like I said, I was just an average student. SM: Was there any subject that you did enjoy? Was it history again? FB: Oh yeah, history, but I dont remember if we hadI guess we did have a history course. Of course I loved the meteorology and the astronomy. I did pretty well in English and I did good in math. My physics I had trouble with at Tulane, you had to pass that. Thats about it I guess. SM: When you finished at Tulane you went into the Navy. Where did you go to pre- flight? FB: Theres one thing that I probably should mention, in fact, I have to mention, is while we were at Tulane our second yearI mean our first year, they sent Larry Nichols and I and another sailor down to Miami, [?] Miami during summer vacation. We were still wearingstill on active duty making $50 bucks a month, but that was a lot of money, and we got down to [NAS], Miami to do what they called tarmac duty and what that really meant was we just went out and we were around the planes. They were F-6s, [Corsairs], TBMs, SB2Cs, World War II planes, and we were there for about six weeks, and it was a lot of fun just being around the planes and doing menial jobs. Wed bus back over to [NAS] Miami. One afternoon while we were riding back in the bus and we looked up and saw a balloon, looked like a weather balloon drifting through the afternoon cumulus clouds and we didnt think anything more about it. We got back to OPA-LOCK A and we were out by the pool just a few minutes later and this Corsair came over, F-4U Corsair, it came over and it was normal. They used to buzz. It was advanced training and it was probably figured it was one of the new pilots, training pilots. We watched him and he turned and then he came back around again real low over the pool and we watched him and then he headed down towards the hangers and crashed. It was a huge orange cloud of black smoke and we ran down there and it was right after secure, so fortunately the line crewmen, most everyone had left just 15 minutes before. But, the plane had crashed and made a very large crater close to the parked planes and then their engine had separated and went into the hanger, and fortunately only one person was killed and very few were injured. What had happened, this plane flew back to the base by itself and circled the base. The pilot had bailed out, he got into an inverted spin in Corsair which was really bad, its tough to get out of, and the balloon we saw was his parachute. This plane had flown back by itself because the engine had not been cut, pulled out, flew back to the base, circled the base, and you know that a couple of years later I saw that drawn on Believe It or Not by Ripley, and of course I believe it; I saw it. SM: Well you mentioned the fact that the engine was not cut off. Was it supposed to have been cut off? FB: Well it would have been a smart thing to do but when youre upside down and spinning and you cant get out of something I can see how it would happen. It would just be like some people wouldnt think about perhaps turning the engine off if there as a fire in the front of their car. It might be a very good idea to shut the engine down because that might stop the fuel pump. Yeah, you shouldit would have been a good idea for him to have done that obviously. But, you never know. Maybe it would have crashed into somebodys house. Thats why I neverI very seldom second guess people when they have accidents. Oh, I did learn to fly at Tulane. SM: This is where you took private lessons, correct, on the GI bill? FB: Yes, what I was going to tell you was this; right after this happened they sent all of us in 1946 after this tarmac dutywhat they did was they discharged all of us. They sent us to discharge centers all over the United States where they had the V-5 and V-12 students, engineering students in V-12 and the V-5 were the Navy pilot students. Well we went up to Jacksonville and got mustered out and they said, Were going to send you back to college as civilians but youll be on inactive duty. Youll be in the Navy, but on inactive duty and youll still get your $50 bucks a month, so we did. Well when we got back to go to Tulane, I was living at home, and I saw this ad in the paper. Somehow I found out there was a flying service called the Crescent City Flying Service giving instructions in a Cub, Cubs, for so much an hour; it was $8 bucks dual and $6 solo, but they said, GI Bill students apply, and I thought, Now wait a minute, and I went down there and I said, Look, Ive only beenIm just 17 going on 18. I said, I been in the Navy a year, am I a veteran? and they said, Yeah, youre a veteran. You can learn to fly under the GI bill, so I did. I went out and I had an instructor named Joe Bonamo whod been a Navy pilot and an ex-airline pilot and he taught me how to fly in the Cub. SM: This was a tail dragger? FB: Yeah, a little piper cub, tail dragger, nothing in it but a little coffee grinder, no gas gauge. You turn the prop by hand to start it. Hed start it; Id sit in the front and hed start it. As a matter of fact, I soloed on April 26th, 1946, and about 14 days later was All Saints Day, November the 1st, 1946. SM: And was that your first cross country experience? FB: Yes, that was my first cross country and Joe, Joes married to a gal, French lady, and her father lived down in a place called Chevane which is southwest Louisiana bayou country. It was about an hour flight in the cub down there, and Joe said, Well lets go flying today, and I said, Yeah, sure! I was ready. I had to get my cross country. So, we flew down there and then when we got down there it was a field, looked like a cow pasture, and he said, Ill take it, and I said, Okay, you got it! I was glad because I didnt want to land on that little place. So he landed it, no problem, we taxied in and there were a whole bunch of folks there waiting, standing around, and Joes father in law, and this one man came up to Joe after we shut down and we got out and he says, Man, last time a plane came down here, crash! and Joe saidnodded his head, and he said, Hey, would you watch this plane for me, keep the cows away from it? Were going fishing for a couple of hours, and Ill give you a buck when we get back, and he said, Sure! So, Joes father in law and I went in his truck and went fishing and caught some fish, bass, and had something to eat, and about three hours later we came back and this man was there and he said to Joe and me, he said, Man, last time a plane came down here, crash! So Joe gave him a dollar and we got in the plane and I started it and Joe got in the back and he said, Frank, Ill show you a carrier take off, and I said, Okay, and we waved to the local Cajuns and Joes father in law and we taxied there and the cows are watching and the Cajuns are watching and we start taking off and bouncing down and we never made it; we crashed. We went right into the trees at the end, but we didnt get hurt. The plane was demolished, I mean it was ripped, but neither one of us got hurt. We got a bump on the knee and a couple of scratches, and Joe says to me, Hey, you should have had your feet on the brakes! and I said, No, I was just watching and waiting and hoping, and then here come the Cajuns and theyre running, and the first guy, its the same guy, he says, Man, I told you so, man, I told you so! SM: How long was this field? FB: Oh, it was short. I couldntit was a short field. Obviously it was not long enough. They put mehe put me on a bus, a Greyhound bus and I rode back and he stayed with the plane with his father in law and on the way back is when I started thinking, I said, Man, that could have been serious! Im making a carrier, getting a demo carrier takeoff, and Ive already crashed and I havent even been on the carrier! But, it ended up okay. Joe didnt get in any trouble. They got a new Piper Cub out of it. I ended up less than a month later getting my private pilots license and I got 60 hours of flying out of it thanks to the GI bill. I always thought they were going to come and get me for sure and send me to Leavenworth because I knew I was breaking the law. How could I be a veteran? But, there was never any problem. I dont know if it helped me or not, but it sure was a lot of fun. SM: Now the flying that you did there with this pilot, Navy pilot, did he pass on information abouthe mentioned the carrier take off, but other lessons and information? FB: Yeah, what he taught me mostwell, in those days we learned spins. We had to learn spins and full stalls and all that stuff, and I did everything, but one of the things that he taught me that I remember real well was short field landings. Of course thats basically what youre doing on a carrier is making a real short field landing. Also, he made me keep a good log book. We had to buy a log book and he showed me how he wanted me to keep it, and over my years I had 14,000 hours and 8,000 landings and a whole bunch of flights, and one of the reasons I have been able to recall a lot of things is because I kept pretty good logs, records, in the back of every mark section about crashes and being shot at and all kinds of things. So, Ive got these seven log books that have helped. Joe was a fine man, good pilot, and I have to thank him. You always remember your first teacher. SM: Do you remember about how much you were charged per hour? FB: They charged $8 dual and $6 solo in those days to fly. Ive got some of the old sectional of charts and they were .25 cents back then and now theyremy goodness, 2.50 or I dont know how much. I have no idea how much sectionals are, but flying was considerablyeverything was considerably less. Just think about it; I smoked back then, cigarettes. We got a carton of cigarettes for $2 dollars, and now I think they pay over $2 dollarsI quit smoking in 67, but cigarettes are horribly expensive, so everything was less expensive then. SM: Lets see, what were the biggest differences in terms of your flying experience and your training between getting a civilian pilots license and flying with your first instructor Joe, and then going into the Navy flight program? FB: Well, lets face it, the Piper Cub might have weighed 1000 pounds if that. It had a 65 horsepower engine, and when I went through flight training after pre-flight, I got to basic and we were flying SNJs which is aI think it had a 650 horsepower engine. So, it was 10 times more powerful and it was a bigger, heavier airplane, had a machine gun in it which we used for training, and the gear came up in it and we did spins and stalls and acrobats. So, the plane was bigger and then of course in the Navy the syllabus for flying was we had instrument flying, we had all sorts of things, formation flying, and eventually we landed the SNJ aboard the carrier. In those days you had to make six carrier landings to get on to go to basic [Advanced]. I did learn how to do complete spins and stalls and the spins had to beyou had to come out exactly on heading and that helped a lot. But flying is flying; once you learn to fly, its like riding a bicycle, you never forget. Flying is basically very simple, its very simple. Its when things go wrong, thats when it counts. SM: So was that training you received from Joe in spins and stalls, was that particularly helpful for you? FB: I think it was, but I dont know because a majority of the Navy pilots and military pilots that went to flight school and got through, they didnt know how to fly. They learned from their instructor in flight school. Im not going to say it helped; I dont think it hurt any, but it sure was fun. Im glad I did it. Id do it over again. SM: Well why dont we go ahead and discuss your introduction into Navy, and in particular into pre-flight. What were your first impressions? FB: In June of 1947 I got orders to pre-flight and took a train from New Orleans to Chicago. My grandpa and my aunt lived in Chicago so I spent the night with them. Then I got on a train that went to Ottumowa, Iowa and went over to our pre-flight. Im still an a pprentice seaman, Im in 18 and when we got there - when I got there, I was by myself when I got there along with the other folks that were there in my pre-flight class that was called 1247, the 12th class of 1947, they said wed have a new program and you have to become a Midshipman, a flying Midshipman. I didnt know what he was talking about. Id never heard of it, none of us had. It was a new program. They got ride of the V-5 apprentice seaman Naval aviation cadets and they swore us in as midshipmen, USN, 3rd class midshipmen, USN, and then right after that they closed the base and we all got in R4-Ds, same as a DC-3 and flew to Pensacola and started pre-flight the first of July. I can tell you about pre-flight if youd like to know about that. SM: Sure. FB: Well pre-flight basically is a two phase thing; its education and physical, and you have to pass them both. The educational end of it was you take things like navigation, both regular chart board navigation Ill call it, its where you have to figure out how to meet a ship and navigate using a chart board and looking at the sea and estimating winds and that sort of thing, and celestial navigation which we had to learn how to take stars [and moon fixes] and use a sexton and that sort of thing. You had to pass that. That was 16 weeks and that was a must pass. Then, blinker and code you had to pass. That was where youd learn Morse Code and blinker giving Morse Code and you had to pass that. We had metallurgy which was important and we had armament or gunnery, learning about bombs and rockets, and we had engines and power plants, and this was before the jet engines. This was learning the reciprocal engines. We had essentials of Naval science, that sort of thing. Im probably forgetting a couple of others, but we did that for 16 weeks. Every day we would have PT or physical training and when we first went in they gave us a test where you had toobstacle course, you had to run this obstacle course in so many minutes and it entailed youve probably seen it with the tires and swinging and running and then hitting like a hand board, hand ball back board to go over this board and jump down and make it. You didnt fail, but they timed you and then when you completed you had to do better than that. Also what they did physically was we played just about every sport you can think of; soccer, and basketball. Gymnastics was something Id never done and it was very difficult because I didnt have any upper body strength; the parallel bars and the swings, you know, the ring swings, I forget what you call it, but that sort of thing, and the trampoline, and jumping on that. But, the thing you had to pass positively was swimming, and in our class of about 35 guys there were several that couldnt swim. You had to be able to swim on top of the water and underwater. On top of the water you had to be able to swim for an hour, stay up afloat, or swim around so many laps, I cant remember how much it was, but you had to stay up an hour or swim the laps, and then you had to be able to swim the pool underwater without any part of your bodyyour rump, for instance, could not break surface. You had to be able to swim underwater for very good reasons. Then the other part of the swimming training was called the Dilbert Dunker. Dilbert Dunker was a mock cockpit up on a rail that slid down and went into the water upside down and you got strapped in that in your swimming suit and theyd release this from a pretty good angle and it would crash into the water and flip upside down and you had to unstrap yourself and get out, and you had to pass that. So, pre-flight was 16 weeks, and when we fouled up, if we didnt make our bed right or sack right or if we did anything wrong in inspections then we had demerits and we had to walk around for an hour, two hours, five hours, depending on how many demerits it was, with a rifle on our shoulder and of course I got a couple of those for not making my sack up right. It had to be perfect, and my wife said I never learned yet. SM: Im curiousIm sorry, go ahead? FB: I was just going to say I never learned! SM: Okay [laughs]. A couple of quick questions; first, what did they cover in metallurgy, do you remember? FB: Oh, metallurgy was the study of the properties and strengths of metals and how metal fatigued and this sort of thing, and of course it would come into play in my life within a year. SM: In what ways in particular? FB: In flight training, in advanced, and we studiedthats what that covered. SM: You mentioned that it would come into play later; what ways in particular were important in terms of the metallurgical training you received? FB: Well, Id be jumping ahead; after basic flight training, which I could cover now and then get into what happened SM: Why dont we wait? Another question about your pre-flight training; the celestial navigation, and how important was your previous astronomy training in that? FB: It was good because I appreciated and I knew some of the constellations and I thought that astronomy and still do think its just a fascinating subject. Its unfortunate in a way because the celestial navigational end of it was mainly for multi-engine pilots, Navy pilots in particular that flew on long flights over water where you would have to take star shots and moon shots and get your exact position on a chart, and of course as a NavalI became a carrier pilot, and we didnt do celestial nav. You had enough problems just using your chart board and getting back to the carrier type of thing. So, I never did use my Morse Code [Celestial Nav]I used my Morse Code, excuse me, I never used the blinker or celestial nav that we had to learn in pre-flight. SM: Do you think it was a waste of your time to learn it? FB: No, there was nothing a waste of time that we did. Incidentally, I meant to tell you about the pre-flight test; at the end of pre-flight, at the 16 weeks, you had to go back and take this obstacle course and step test again. The step test was one where you went up and stepped up on a board to the count of the metronome or beat and you had to do it and your physicalyou had to do that. A lot of guys got sick and up-chucked. It was really strenuous. The obstacle course you had to do again and do it faster and better than you did before, and I mention this because one of my roommates, Carl Tenefoss, real nice guy from Virginia, Carl, he passed everything fine but he was just a little bit heavier than the rest of us and Carl couldnt get overdidnt make his obstacle course, so he washed out. So, he was the only one in our class that washed out, didnt make it through pre-flight. We had several of the others, a little bit over half washed out in flight training, in basic and flight training, but Carl was the only one that washed out because of the obstacle course [in preflight]. SM: Once you finished your pre-flight, you went on to flight training? FB: Yes, there was a pool, there was an awful back log. The Navy was closing up bases and I dont know why, but whereas the Air Force [Air Corp] stopped pilot training, in fact one of my classmates Freddy Englart went in [the Air Corp]. His dad was a pilot and had got killed flying, but Freddy wanted to fly and he went into the Army Air Corps and he was a little older than I was, so when he graduated he went right into the Army Air Corps and they closed his program down so he never did get to flight training. But, the Navy kept theirs open. So, I was fortunate that I got to go to flight school. So what happened, excuse me forbut what happened is this pool took place, so after November the 1st, which is funny, November the 1st is the day I graduated from pre-flight which was one year earlier I had been in that plane crash down at Chevane with Joe. So from November the 1st to February we had a pool and I remember I volunteered along with Art Berry who was a classmate of mine, and we volunteered to go into a pressure chamber and go up like twice a day for two weeks. What they did was we got in this chamber, and there were about six of us, five or six of us, and wed go up from sea level to 20,000 feet in two minutes or [10,000 feet] a minute, real fast climb, and then wed stay up there and exercise for half an hour and do all sorts of tests and then come down, and then wed go back and do it in the afternoon, and we did this as a program to see what it would be like for jet pilots to go up and do this, and there was no problem. There was no effects at all that I can remember. Both Art and I later ended up flying jets, and they promised us that wed get a couple daysa weekend pass, and we never got it. So, I should have neverthat taught me about volunteering! One other thing we did during that pool was a bunch of us made up a basketball team named the Jets, a bunch of midshipmen, and nobody wasI think the tallest one was Stan Van Leer in my class, he was about 61, maybe less than that, but we got together and the Marines ran our pre-flight and basic [training]. They were in charge of us, and so we drummed up this team and we said, Well, well call them the Jets, because that sounded great, and we went to the Marines and said, How about letting us be the midshipmen team for the base, and they said, No, were not really interested in sponsoring you, and we said, Okay, and went on our own, went out and bought our uniforms, and we won the whole thing, we beat out everybody. We won, and we won three great, big, huge trophies, and Ive got a picture of us with those trophies. Well, we took turns keeping the trophies in our rooms. There were two men to a barracks there and about a week after we had them the Marines confiscated our trophies and says, You cant have these trophies, you cant keep these in your rooms! so they put them in theirs [office]. So, there were no Marineswe had no big great love for the Marines, but it didnt make any difference because we couldnt take them with us anyway. That was kind of funny. SM: That is funny! Now the basic flight training, where was that? FB: That was at Cory Field. That started for me on Valentines Day, 14 February, 1948, and we went to Cory Field which is a little field there in Pensacola and we flew SNJs and my first instructor was a Marine Lieutenant Red Halligan and I remember him, real nice gent, and I flew the SNJ and went through the syllabus, and Aprillets see, about a month later I soloed on a grass field called Eight Able up in Alabama and went through my basic flight training at Cory. We learned instruments. In fact, the only down I got, I got a down in instruments once for whatever reason, but I went up and flew again, but Cory Field we learned night flying and night flying was kind of funny and kind of fun. My first instructor was a chief named Bledsoe and I remember he took me up, and he says, This is how you do it, and he showed me a landing, and then I went around and was flying and while I was flying it and landing I could feel him on the controls and he was flying it, too. So, he got out and says, You got it! and I thought, Wow, man, I dont know what Im doing! So I took off in that SNJ at night and got up there and flew around and came back and landed it fortunately with no problem, but we learned night flying there. Thats one thing we certainly didntI didnt learn to do in a piper cub was night flying, and of course I ended up being a night pilot, to make a long story short. But that first night landing was something else because I could feel the chief. He was flying it, he was landing it, not me. From there we went to Saufley Field which was a bigger base up a little bit north, in north Pensacola and there we did formation flying and we did gunnery and more night flying, cross country, and the big thing we did was carrier landings. But, I was very good in gunnery. I got 10% hits which I know doesnt sound like much but I think 12% I got and I figure thats the only reason they stuck me into Corsair [F4U] because nobody else in our group got fighters. But, we had to learn to land on the carrier and he went out and landed the SNJ on the Wright, USS Wright, and made six okay landings, and then that was the end of basic. It was August 1st or the end of July 1948. SM: Now the carrier landings that you guys did, were they complete stops or did you just touch FB: The old carriers, the old kind of carriers. The regular aircraft carrier was just a little kind of a small runway and it had a bunch of wires strung across and it had a tail hook and you grabbed it and if you didnt grab it, why you crashed into a fence or a barrier. A barrier was a large very large high bunch of cables strung across the deck to keep the landing plane from crashing into the planes that had landed. As soon as the plane landed, why the men on the deck, flight deck, hookmen, would go out and pick the hook up after you were drawn back. See, the hook would catch the wire and then youd stop and then theyd bring you back enough so that the hook men could pick the hook up and then youd taxi forward real fast and then theyd raise [lowered] the fences or barriers. So what you did is you landed and you had X number of wires. Lets say its 12 wires and the first eight or nine wires, depending upon the wind of course, the more wind you had the better it was, youd land and if you got one of the late wires and it looked like you were going to crash into the fence, if you had a wire, a lot of times the barrier operator would drop the barrier so your prop wouldnt get it and that happened quite a bit. So basically, thats what a carrier landing was; you came around, you got a cut or a wave off, [both were]mandatory. If the LS, landing signal officer, gave you a wave off, why you took it. You wrapped it up to the left and added power and went around and tried again. If he gave you a cut, you had to take it and land, and just you had to make a good landing, and thats what a carrier landing was then. There was no [canted or angled] of deck, no touch and goes [then]. SM: And were people frequently or infrequently running into that barrier? FB: Well it happened, it happened often, especially in flight training it could happen, but it happened on the fleet, too. There was an old saying then that there were those who had barriers, and there were those who were going to get barriers, and eventually everybody did; well, not everybody, there were some gents that never got any. In fact, I know several of my friends never got any. I did. I went and got Corsairs in advance and of course I got a fence in my fourth landing on a Corsair on the Cabot and of course it was very embarrassing. Of course guys got fences then. SM: What happened when you hit the fence? FB: Oh, when I was flying the Corsair in advance I came around and got a cut and thought I made a good landing but I bounced and my hook didnt catch the wires and I flew right into the barrier and it tipped it over and crumpled the tail and it was on April Fools Day, and thats right; I was the fool! But, they just sent me back. Im getting ahead because I was going to tell you about Corsairs when I got SM: Yes. FB: I went to advanced training in Jacksonville. I got sent over there to an ATU-4 which was an F-4U Corsair advanced training and attack. Even though it was a fighter, we flew it as an attack aircraft. I got to fly the Corsair and learn to fly it over there. It was quite an airplane because it was a big jump from a 650 to 2000 horsepower engine, and of course only one cockpit, so you had to get in it and fly it, and my first takeoff, like everybody else, you added the power and took off and we took off with the canopy open and I can remember I didnt want to let go of anything to crank the canopy closed or pick up the gear or anything. Most every brand new student pilot, youd see him take off on his first take off from Jackson and hed be climbing up and the gear would be down, and the gear would be down! We went over to Doctors Field [Inlet A Field] just south of Jacksonville on the river there, the St. Johns and the river there called Doctor Inlet, and went over there at Doctors Inlet and made some touch and go landings and then came back and landed, and it was a thrill. It was really something for a kid, we were just kids flying those Navy fighters. Ive got to tell you one story about at Tulane, speaking of the Corsair, I just remembered and really its kind of funny; we went toright after we started our school Notre Dame was playing Tulane at the Sugar Bowl Stadium which was Tulanes stadium, open end stadium at that time. It still had about 60,000 people. We sat there and it was a sunny afternoon and Tulane was beating Notre Dame seven to nothing at the half and I mean peopleit was just a huge upset because Tulane was nothing and Notre Dame had a tremendous football team back in 1945. Well, at the half time, unannounced, and nobody knew this was going to happen, just as the half ended and the teams left the field, an F-4U came in through the open end of the field, right over the top of the goalpost, and in single file there were about 16 of them, one right after the other, and they came over and they pulled up and rolled, and everybodys going crazy. They came around again and the next time around they came over and did the same thing and my dad was at home in New Orleans and listening to the game, and Bill Stern was a famous radio announcer, was announcing the game and this is what he said, he said, Here come them Navy planes again, and theyre coming in and hes rolling, and hes pulling up, and hes dropping a steamer, and here comes another one and hes dropping a streamer! Well what was happening was out on the field, here was completelynobody on the field, and the Corsairs come in and theyre dropping out toilet paper and its unrolling and [Monk Simon], little Monk Simon, the coach at Tulanes son is out there trying to catch these streamers and it was the funniest thing, and I mean it was beautiful! That field was littered with that toilet paper! Bill Stern was calling them streamers. Im telling you, we were justit was fantastic, and of course the game ended and it was like Notre Dame 35, Tulane 7. It was anti-climatic after seeing those Corsairs and it was funny because thats what I would fly, the Corsair. SM: Now were you given a choice after you finished your basic flight school? FB: Yes, we were given a choice and 99% of the guys put in for fighters. You had fighters and then you had attack and then you had multi-engine land, multi-engine sea, and I put in for fighters and then attack and then my last choice was multi-engine. I didnt want to fly multi-engine, so I was quite happy to getI didnt get fighters, I got attack, but the attack was to fly the Corsair and it was basically a fighter, so I got what I wanted and went over and flew the Corsair and went through the rockets and gunnery and all that bit. I was real good in rockets, I was very good in rockets. I had several bulls eyes and that sort of thing, but I wasnt that goodI couldnt shoot my gunnery near as well in the F-4-U as I did in the SNJ. I think I got 6% [15%] hits in my air to air gunnery. But, in the middle of advanced, why the Navy closed down Jacksonville and we all had to move to Texas and we had to ferry the planes from Jacksonville to Corpus Christi, Texas, Caviness Field. The first stop was New Orleans. So, I called my dad, and I said, Dad, were going to be ferrying the Corsair to Texas and were going to spend the night in New Orleans! so he was out there when we landed and I landed on the little bitty NAS New Orleans. It was a small strip then, out by the lake, Lake Ponchitran. The longest runway wasoh, I dont know, 3400-3500 feet long, but it was nothing to us because we had learned how to plunk it down, and we landed there and spent the night and then went on. I later ended up flying the FG-1Ds which were Goodyear Corsairs out at that little strip in New Orleans. Dad got to see us land and then we went to the house and a bunch of us spent the night at my house and then we went on to Cabinass the next day. SM: And lets see, were you going to talk about metallurgy in regard to your basic flight? FB: Say it again? SM: Were you going to talk about metallurgy with regard to your basic flight program? FB: Oh yeah, well at the end of the F-4U advanced training well we went back tothe last flight, my last flight in advanced, I had aI flew three flights that day. We got into a pool there at Caviness because the runway wasnt very good so we got delayed, but my last flight was a night flight and I had flown three flights that day, and as I was coming around I smelled electrical fire and I didnt handle it well because when I landed I ground looped, and oh brother. I figured, Ive had it! But, they just sent me right on with the rest of the flight to Pensacola to fly at what they called Advanced Carrier Qualifications in the Corsair. You had to make seven landings in your aircraft and mine was the F-4U so I went on to Cabinass FieldI mean, to Saufley and shot my carrier qualification flights. We went out on the Cabot to make our landings the 1st of April that I mentioned before and on my fourth landing I got that fence. Well, they sent me back, I had to go back, and make a couple of Field Carrier Landing Practices; they call them FCLPs, to again go back out. Well on my first day back, on the 4th of April Im out at Allison Field, just north of Pensacola where we used to bounce right on [Perdido] Bay and my second or third landing came around. Youre doing an FCLP landing, youre about 300 feet pattern above the ground, you come around, and you look for the LSO with his flags or paddles and he waves you in. Well I got a cut and landed on the runway there and while Im adding the power making my touch and go I noticed I had the stick all the way over against my left leg to keep the Corsair going down the runway. There was no wind to speak of, or the wind was right down the runway so it wasnt the wind doing it. I looked out and my right wing was split. In fact, right at the Gull [Gull Flaps] I could see the ground through the passing by and I thought, Oh my Lord! So I pushed the mic button, you know, and I said, My wings split! My wings split! and the guy says, What the hell you want me to do about it? Of course there was nothing he could do about it. So I took off and I got full power and then I throttled back, kept the wheels and flaps down, and Im flying the stick with my knees trying to put my parachute on. We didnt wear our parachute because we were too low to use it, so I thought, Well, let me get up high enough and Ill bail out, and I finally got my chute on, going straight ahead, and I got up around 3-4-5,000 feet and the wing was still staying on so the TBM pilot, chief from the base was there and he came up and took a look, flew wing on me, and he says, Well lets just you fly it back to the base and land it, so I did, and I kept it at 85 knots with the gear down and the canopy open and I flew it back to Saufley and landed it and there was no problem. But, when I landed, the wing as the liftas we slowed down, the wing dropped down to the runway. I taxied in, and it must have looked like some sick bird with the wing down! Well, three hours later I had a board, accident board, so I went in there and the LSO and the maintenance officer said, Well obviously you made a hard landing, too hard [of a ] landings, its pilot error! Of course I thought to myself, Well, I can understand the LSO saying that, but the maintenance officer, he wasnt even there, he didnt see me land! So anyway, the accident board people said, Okay, Midshipman Bonansinga, what have you got to say? I figured, Oh boy, here Ive had two accidents in the last three weeks, my butts a bun. But, I had something up my sleeve; I said, Well I preflighted the plane this morning before I flew, and when I looked at the right oleo strut, the oleo is the metal part that the strut housed, The oleo wheel strut, I noticed a crack around it, and I called the plane captain, crew chief plane captain of the Corsair over and I said, Hey, look at this. This crack goes all the way around this right strut! He said, Yeah, maintenance okayed it, and I said, Okay, if maintenance says its okay, Ill fly it. Well when they heard that they said, Case dismissed, go fly. We dont want to see you again, go fly. So three days later I went out and made my seven landings and that metthats what metallurgy was all about. That plane had 65,000 or 60 some thousand FCLPs and landings on it and when you landmake a carrier landing, especially in the Corsair, when you touched down it was a lot of Gs, G force, so it accumulated and it had metal fatigue. I was told that was the first F-4U to have metal fatigue and of course there were many more. There were others after that. But if I hadnt pre-flighted that plane, I might not have got through. SM: Very lucky. FB: Yes, I was. I was lucky throughout my whole flying experience. SM: Did you happen to notice the look on the maintenance persons face when you said that? FB: No, I didnt, Im surebut the LSO and the maintenance chief, you know, I mean obviously they asked me, Did you make a hard landing? and I said, Of course I did, theyre all hard landings! The [G-Meter was too blocked] when you plopped it down. Yeah, that was some day. There werelets see, Im looking at a picture right now on the wall. There were 10 of us that got our wings. SM: So by designation, you mean thats when you became FB: Thats when I was designated a Naval aviator; in those days they called it Heavier than air, it says on my certificate there, Naval aviator Victor 26 Midshipman, and my name, USN designated Victor 26, Naval aviator this day, heavier than air. SM: I guess the best place to go next is to discuss your assignments after you finished your flight training. FB: I went to VC-23, a night outfit, and then landed SM: How long did you stay there? FB: Oh, I spent a long time there. It was 5 years. I spent two tours there. Its the only sea duty I had. SM: What did you do during the Korean War? FB: Thats where I was. I wanted toI was there before the Korean War whenare we on? SM: Yes, sir, Im recording. FB: Oh, I see. Well I went to VC-33 after I got my wings and it was a TBM outfit, and I was a midshipmen aviator and then became an ensign while I was there, and ended up flying off the Roosevelt down atmade 12 daytime landings on it and then during that era there was a big cutback so they decided to release a whole bunch of us former midshipmen aviators. They were going to keep 60% of us but they only kept 10% so instead of beingso all of us but two in ourwe had 13 ex-midshipmen, former midshipmen pilots in the VC-33 of the 33 pilots, 32 pilots, but 13 were midshipmen. So when they decided to give us our walking papers in June of 1950, why they sent the 11 of us to a ferry squadron to ferry aircraft from Norfolk to what we called the graveyard in Litchfield Park. Thats where the Navy kept their planes on storage. So, I got to fly a Bearcat from Norfolk over to Litchfield and that was fantastic. Then we ferried some SNJs from Pensacola to Litchfield Park and then it came time for us to be released, and on the 25th of June, 1950, why I was in dispersing pay off window getting my mustering out pay when there at headquarters in Norfolk and the admiral, Admiral Felix B. Stump was the commander of the Atlantic fleet, called Com Nav Air Land, and his orderly came down and said, Would all the midshipmen who are being released please follow me up to the admirals office, and we went up there and he said, We just had a war start in Korea. We didnt know anything about it and I guess very few did, but he said, I dont want you to be getting out of the Navy, we need you, and those of you that will volunteer to stay in Ill send you where you want to go, so I said, I want to go back to my squadron, and the other guys, all but one of them, we all went back to VC-33 because they had moved from Norfolk flying TBMs up to Atlantic City to take over the night attack flying at Able Dog or AD, Douglas AD which is a wonderful kind of a new airplane, so we did. So, I stayed in during the Korean War going back up from Norfolk and stayed in VC-33 and went up and flew the night version of the AD off the carriers at night. Thats what I did during that period of time. SM: And where were these carriers? FB: Well they were in the Atlantic fleet but we volunteered to go and fly in Korea but they only sent one of the former midshipmen, Jim Whyte went, and all the rest of us got sent to the Mediterranean. Of course we were young and we didnt know any better, and it was probably best we didnt go because some of the guys did get killed; Jim didnt. So, I ended up making my first Med cruise in 19actually, I made a Guantanamo Bay cruise and then the Med cruise in January of 1951. We went over in that part of the world during the [Korean] war. SM: A couple of significant international political events that occur during this period in addition to the Korean War, in particular the fall of China, and I was wondering if you remember when that happened, if you were politically aware, and did you guys discuss those types of things? FB: Well of course I was aware. The Flying Tigers and Chung Kai Shek and Mrs. Chung Kai Shek was a famous lady in her own right, pilot and everything, and I was well aware. General Chenault was from Louisiana and the Flying Tigers and I knew about that. Other than that, I really didntother than what I remember as a boy seeing the pictures of the fall of Shanghai I felt like the war between Japan and China was bad and thats how weof course we got really drawn into the war, but other than that I wasnt that concerned other than the fact that about this time I did receive an offer, or a bunch of us found out that we could have gone to fly Bearcats for the French in the French-Indonesian war and it would have been considerablygoing from like 300 bucks a month to 650 to fly with theI didnt, and I didnt know anybody that did, but its probably just as well I didnt go because that was not a good situation. SM: Had you heard about outfits like Civil Air Transport? FB: No, not at that time. No, I found out about that much later, after I left the Navy. This period Im talking about right now is 1950 and I stayed with VC-33 except for a short period when I went up to Glenview and flew nightI flew F8Fs at day and F6F5 and night fighters at night for the students at Glenview. I got out for a very short period and then went right back to VC-33. I made two more Med cruises. SM: What did you do during your Med cruise, your first one, and then subsequent cruises, how were they different? FB: Well the first Med cruise I was just a brand new Ensign and we only flewI remember we only made four night landings, one a month, and there was not very much fun to fly at night anyway. It was very challenging. Very few people did it. So, if you flew enough, you had confidence, and you did pretty good. I never had any more accidents after that one fence I got, but flying at night was kind of tough. We didnt fly much the first Med cruise, not that much. Thats how they differed. The next cruise I made was two years later in 1953 on the Tarawa and we flew a lot more then, and of course I was an older, [more] experienced pilot also and the more you flew at night off the carrier the better, but they didnt want that much night flying because an awful lot of accidents happened at night with the straight deck carriers. So the Navy didnt get around to doing a lot of night flying until they got the canted deck carrier after I got out. SM: That allowed for a rapid acceleration if you miss a cable? What was the FB: A canted deck carrier, just picture this; a sheet of paper, a letterhead sheet of paper. Well on the old style carriers you land right up the sheet of paper, and if you drew a line right through the center of the sheet of paper, thats where the barrier would be. Okay, well all the planes that had landed would go up on the forward part of the ship, in the bow. To protect them, they put these wires or fences across to protect them. On the canted deck carrier, they took a piece of paper and the lower left had corner of the paper, if you held it up, they built an extension, so now instead of landing right straight into the center of the letter paper you come in and you land at an angle, at a cant and then theres only four wires there to arrest you. Its not that long, but its long enough for you to stop. But, if your wire doesnt catch the wires you keep the power on and you just touch down. Its like a touch and go, you just go around again. So, that was the big difference, and then of course nowadays they have tankers so that if planes come in and they need fuel, they get topped off so that they can keepif they have some kind of a problem they can continue to make the landings and then of course on the canted deck instead of having a man dressed up in an LSO Christmas Tree suit that you can see with real bright paddles the way we used to come in and get turn signals and high and low and all that, now they have a meatball or a lens that is very bright, brilliant, and you can see its a glide slope, and they set it for each plane. As you come in you dont make a circular approach like we did. Now you come in and you make kind of a straight in approach and you fly the glide slope right down to touchdown and then if you dont get a wire you just keep your power on. You take the power off, now, when you feel the tug of the wire. But, if you dont get the tug of the wire you just go around, so that was a big difference. SM: And I guess thats what I was trying to emphasize, the fact that at night youre more prone to miss the cable and hit the fence? Was that the primary accident they were worried about? FB: The only difference between day and night is at night you cant see what youre doing, and when you cant see what youre doing just imagine driving down the center of a road without any headlights and youve just got barely enough, maybe a beam of flashlights to try to drive your car down the center of the center line. Think about doing that versus driving in the daytime, and thatll give you some idea of what it was like. But, youve got depth perception to boot. When you come in you have to just learn how to land because they didnt light up the decks hardly at all. They were still using World War II lights out tactics. SM: What were the most important differences between your Med cruises, or were there any significant differences? FB: No, just the fact that we seemed toas I got more experienced, why it got easier and we got to fly more, even on the old [?] decks. I went from the AD-5 then which was a single placed night attack radar counter measure plane. My last cruise was on the AD-4, the [wide bodied] side by side. They called it the same plane, but it really wasnt. The crewmen, the two crewmen we carried instead of riding down in the belly of the plane like we did on the original Douglas Skyraider, the five in, one sat next to you and one sat behind us. It was much better for the crewmen because it is very claustrophobic for them to have ridden in the inside of the plane. I rode back there a few times, even came off the ship once in the back. I know what its like, it wasnt easy for them. But, it wasnt the same airplane; it had a very wide windshield and the same engine and everything but it was slower and it handled a little more difficulty. But, it was basically the same. SM: And you stayed in the Navy at this point until 1955? FB: Yes, I stayed in. I went up, all in the same squadron, I went from midshipman to a full lieutenant in the same squadron which was unusual, and then my last [cruise] I decided if I didnt make regular [Navy] I didnt want to stay in because in those days at that time if you didnt make lieutenant commander then you got riffed out and I would have been in my 30s and at that time I figured that was old, and here I was 27 years old and Id been in the Navy 10 years and I said, Well if I dont make regular Ill get out, and I didnt make it. So, on my last cruise, I found I didnt make it so my last landing on the VC-33 was my 300th in the squadron, which was a lot then, a lot of landings then. Thats nothing now, but my last landing was my 300th in VC-33 and I made that and then I came back to the States in August and in September of 55 I got out of the Navy. SM: Did you already have something lined up? FB: No, I had nothing lined up. I thought Id try to go to work for the airlines and at that time my wife and I were living up inshe was from Winchester, Massachusetts so I went up to Boston and I couldntI contacted American and United and Pan American, all of them, those three mainly, and they all said they didnt have anything open but they would maybe later on. As Id mentioned before, Id been aId learned howmachinist. I could weld, and run a drill press, and that sort of thing. So, I went over to Raytheon headquarters in Newton, Massachusetts to get a job to tide me over as a machinist. I figured I could get that. So, I filled out an application and I was waiting for the gentleman to interview me and he called me into his office and just as he offeredwe shook hands and we sat down, and the phone rang and he was talking and he said, Yeah, I have one. Yes, as a matter of fact I have a man right now sitting in front of me, and so he says, Yeah, Ill send them over. And he says, That was our chief pilot. Well I didnt even know Raytheon had an airplane, any airplanes, because I was just going there to get a job as a machinist. So I went over to Hanscom Field, Bedford, Mass, and met George Bottjer who had been a Navy pilot in World War II, got the Navy Cross as a matter of fact, real nice guy, former baseball player, too; he was drafted by the Yankees but war intervened. Well George interviewed me and to make a long story short two months later after he flew down to Atlantic City and talked to my skipper in an F3D I got hired. Incidentally I did check out in a jet at VC- 33. I got to fly it maybe 100 hours. SM: What jet was that? FB: Oh, thats a jet, the old Navy F3D Sky Knight and my skipper said, Hey Frank, go fly that thing, we had a bunch of them and I said, I dont want to fly that, and he says, Look, go fly it! so Yes, sir, and I went and flew it, and once I got in it and flew it they couldnt get me out of it. I said, My God, this is so simple! This is stupid simple! All you did is light the fire and add the throttles and go; no torque, no gas gauges to worry about, and no trim tabs, you dont have to keep fighting the trim on it, and they had an auto-pilot and an ADF. It even had a cigarette lighter and a rug. It had a needle that pointed at the radio stations, called ADF, automatic directI flew up from 1946 to 1953 when I flew an F3D, all that time and at that time I probably had close to 2500 hour - I had neverthe only think we had done, we had flown all IFR instrument flight rules, everything, with nothing but what we called a coffee grinder, just a low frequency radio riding the beam, listening to Ns and As. Youve heard that, ride the beam? Well thats all that is, is radio beams. It was like four arms, north, south, east, and west, more or less, and NANA sectors [Morse Code] and where they meet together they make a beam sound that you just listened in your ear and you fly right across the United States and when it came time to land wed land on the beam or make a GCA approach. So to have an ADF, to have a needle pointed was like going to heaven. And the thing cruised about 350 knots, and gee, it had long legs. I once flew it from Tinker Field [in Tulsa] to Atlantic City nonstop at night and Id been out to see my mother who was on the west coast at that time and I came back and I was by myself, landed at Tinker Field in Tulsa I believe, and this Air Force meteorologist said, If you level off up around 30 or 40,000 youll feel a bump up there. When you feel this bump, he said, Level off. Itll take you all the way home just about. He was right on the money. When I got home and got back that night I had had 100 knot tailwind all the way. When I went to the bar the next day or that night or whatever and I was telling the guys, I said, Can you believe that? 100 knot tailwind? It was just unheard of. So, I got to fly that F3D quite a bit. I got about 100 hours in the Navy, and then I flew it for 600 test work for Raytheon because Raytheon was electronic flight tests. SM: Just out of curiosity, why did it have a cigarette lighter? FB: Its crazy, its crazy; it had a rug, it even had an auto pilot. I guess if they flew low enough where they didnt have to wear their oxygen masks, you could smoke. I never did. I did smoke in the AD, we all smoked. That was automatic. The skipper, wed take off in formation there at Norfolk in TBMs, theres a great big MAT [a large black top; landing and T.O.area]. In those days wed take off in formation, the whole squadron, 16 of us, and then we even landed in formation once, but the first thing we did after we got our gear up, flying wing, the skipper, hed get his gear up and then hed take out a smoke and smoke and the guys that smoked, theyd all take out their smokes and smoke. It was crazy. SM: Did these aircraft have ash trays? FB: No, no. SM: How about the F3D? FB: Yeah, the F3D did as I remember it. It was crazy. SM: Well so this is youre a test pilot for Raytheon and FB: I was called an engineering pilot. I was hired as an engineering - excuse me, I have to get a drink of water an engineering test pilot, a transportation pilot, and I started out there in DecemberNovember of 55 and I flew the Bonanza and they had an F6 Hellcat and I flew that and the F3D and the twin beach which Id flown in the Navy and I did a lot of transportation work just to start but then they started funneling me into the test program for the HAWK [Missle; H- homing, A-all the, W-way, K-killer] and the Sparrow. Both were radar homing missiles that they used a different principle, a doppler, FMCW homing principle, and I got in onto that. SM: Are these considered harm missiles? FB: No, that was later. SM: Theyre not anti-radiation? FB: Yeah, I did a lot of that work too but it was much later. Basically I started out with Raytheon just flying target and that sort of thing but then I got into flying the radar missile fire control system work and the F3H Demon and later the F4H and I did a lot of work in the F4D Douglas Sky Raider [Skyray] before the Phantom showed up. I got to do a lot of research and development test work mainly in electronics and some structural flight tests related to the sparrow missile tests at Raytheon. SM: How did this compare to flying in the Navy? FB: Well it was entirely different. In the Navy I dropped bombs and rockets and did counter measures work and flew off the carrier mainly and then whereas now the work that I did was in an engineering test work manner that required me to fly specifically in projects that were determined by engineers where they had projects where we were trying to prove a system or learn something, whether it was sticking a missile under a wing called captive flight where you pretended like you were being shot and they telemeter the information, relay that information of the missile back to the engineers engineering offices, or they would send me up and have me evaluate a specific radar against other targets and see how well I could fly the plane and simulate launching a missile and this is basically the kind of work we did with the fighter types and of course then we had the infrared type where we would go to Cape Canaveral and Vandenburg and out at White Sands and get signature studies of missiles, ICBMs and that sort of thing. I did an awful lot of that, too. SM: When you were flying for Raytheon, the Hawk missile system and things like that, how much were you gathering data or was there equipment on board that was collecting the information necessary for the study? FB: Yeah, in some cases yes, like for instance, the infrared type, you cant telemeter infrared signals, or we didnt do any of that. That was all onboard recording. The air to air intercept and the fusing work that we did with the Sparrow and the Hawk that was onboard recorder and also telemetering information that the missile would see and the radars were seeing, those were parameters that were successfully able to be sent back or telemetered back to a recorder; but the infrared, no, that was onboard recording. An engineer usually flew with me in an F3D when we did infrared signature studies, but when I flew thea lot of my older work in the F4D was single seater and the F3H demon was single and that was all telemetered stuff. I hope that answers your question. SM: Yes, sir, it does. Could you explain what telemetering is, because thats not FB: Youre just taking information thats recorded thats sent into a radio and the radios transferring it back to a receiver on the ground or in the air, and then there its recorded so that the engineer or engineers can seethey know how to tell whats happening by looking at the information as it comes back on a series of disks or dials, and its also recorded and they know how to extrapolate and determine just whats happening, and its according to time so they can tell exactly whats happening at a certain time in the flight test. Thats what telemetering is. SM: So basically when you would get into one of these aircraft to go conduct one of these tests, youd have a pretty rigorous and established flight plan that you would have to follow? FB: In general, yes. We would brief before we took off and I was given a certain job to do for each flight and I had a little knee pad in fact Ive still got it to this day, issued by Douglas in 1950 and I had a stop watch I stuck on there because I had to do some timing and I would write down the information that I was called upon to note, and follow, and then of course youve got to remember were talking over the radio, too. Were in communications with flight tests. Its like one day they had me up on the F3H demon flight in 1959. It was June I believe, June of 59, or maybe it was 60, whatever, but they had me out over conducting a structural flight test with the sparrow III under the wing of the F3H and the last thing I was supposed to do, I was out over the Atlantic at high speed and I was coming back towards Bedford, which Bedfords just out of Boston inland about maybe 25 miles and I was coming in over Cape Ann which funnels down by right intoright past Boston. You go by Gloster and Beverly and that sort of thing, and I was aboutI had to do this fast high Q test, high Q means high structuralhigh speed at low altitude, so at 5000 feet I was doing over 500 knots. I was keeping it under Mach 1 so I wouldnt cause any damage [to houses, glass windows with a sonic boom at Mach 1], and I was coming back to land so I was real low on fuel in the demon and my engine quit, it flamed out, and I tried to relight it which is usually pretty simple to do but I couldnt get it running. The engine RPM went down from maybe 96% down to just dying on down, so I called Raytheon radio, I was in contact with them and I said, Ive got a flame out, Ive got trouble, and Im going over to emergency frequency, and I got off the radio and I was over Beverly, about 20 miles outside of Boston at 5,000 feet but I was going so fast and I was light on fuel, and I could seeit was in the afternoon and I could see Boston Harbor there, it was right off my left wingtip, and the water was just glassy, I mean it was calm, and I said, Well, Im going to stick it on the water, Im not going to eject. I didnt want to, I was afraid maybe in the back of my mind the plane was going to go into somebodys house or something because it would keep going at that speed, no telling where it would go, so I got all set. I stuck down what I call a Ram Air Turbine [RAT], like a little propeller that has its own little hydraulic system so I could still fly the plane, otherwise if it didnt have that I couldnt have flown it because its not like a cub or World War II plane. You dont flytheres no more cables in there, its hydraulics, so I was going to stick it in there and at the last minute why all of a sudden I look up and I say, Man, theres Logan Airport, Boston Logan, and I said, I think I can make that, so I switched over and told them at Raytheon, KD6, that was the call sign for Raytheon, I said, KD6, Im going over to Logan. Im going to try to make it. So I called Logan and I said, This is Navy 586, F3H about five miles out, Ive got a flame out. I think I can make 2-2 Right [Runway 22-R;220 degrees or southwest runway]. Looks like youve got an airliner on the end of it getting ready to take off. You get him off the end of that runway, and Id appreciate it, and they said, Roger, youre so they called the airliner and he got off the runway and I fortunately made it. I touched down about 220 knots and plunked it on the end and I got it stopped and I didnt blow a tire. I was proud of that, I didnt blow any tires; good tires and good brakes, no drag chute and no tail hook. They came out and put the fire out. I had a fire in the engine, and my boss came over [flew over from Bedford] and he was really pleased that nothing had happened to his airplane, and of course he was happy that nothing happened to me too, but as long as nothing happened to the airplane nothing happened to me. Well, come to find out, the other part of the story as they say, the rest of the story, two days later we got a message from the Navy, because its a Navy [McDonald] built aircraft, that you should not fly the F3H with the Allison J71 engine in or around clouds because itll flame out if its around clouds and moisture. Well they were absolutely right, it was just two days late telling me! So, they stuck a new engine in it and we flew later. We flew it, we got rid of it, but they had that problem. That was one of my lucky days. SM: You identified yourself to the Logan tower as Navy. Were you still considered a Navy pilot? FB: No, thats a call sign. SM: Oh, okay. FB: My call sign is Navy 586. That was the last three digits of the bureau number, 132586, and you just identify yourself. You dont say, This is Frank Bonansinga. SM: I know that. FB: You just like when I flew the F-86, you just say its Saber 586 [O4A]. SM: I didnt know if Navy at the beginning of it meant Navy aircraft. FB: It does, it means a Navy, thats right, its Navy plane. When you say Navy, then that identifies the plane. Some pilotI could have said, This is Navy Demon, but whenever I called I just would give the bureau number. SM: Now were there any other interesting flights that you were on when you were an engineering pilot? Some of those things happened? FB: I had too many. I dont know how much you want me to talk, but SM: Just the ones that stand out as maybe being important, especially maybe things that helped you later on as a pilot when you were flying for Air America. FB: I had one kind of interesting flight one day in the F3D. I was up around 35,000 and all of a sudden the left windshield blew out, canopy blew out, and I didnt know what happened. All of a sudden my mask went straight out and I went from 70a comfortable 60 to 70 in the cockpit to 70 below zero and I couldnt see anything it was real white, like a cloud had formed in the cockpit and I didnt know what happened, and then I looked to the left and I said, Boy its clear over there, and I looked out and my God, I had nothe whole left canopy had blown out, so it was in the winter and I just chopped the throttle and put the speed brakes out and dropped down to low altitude. It was over Delaware and I flew it back to Boston and I was cold, and I landed no problem, but some farmer must have found a big piece of canopy in his farm yard but we never heard anymore about it. The only reason that thats similar is because one time my co- pilot and I, Dave Waters at Air America, were flying over the PDJ and we had a similar type smoke but it wasnt from a cloud, it was from our Niked battery that was ready to blow up. All of a sudden the cabin got full of this white smoke and it was so thick we couldnt even see the instruments in front of us and we couldnt breathe but fortunately we had our oxygen masks and we both put them on, and we landed without anywell, we did have a problem. I can tell you that now, or I can tell you that later. SM: Lets talk about that when we get to your Air America experiences. How about your timelets see, while you were working for Raytheon you also went to White Sands, is that correct? FB: Oh yeah, in fact I was at White Sands the day Kennedy was assassinated. I was flying and I landed and we had some projects there and my last project I was flying a Navy F4D, thats a Sky Ray, Delta Wing Sky Ray, and we were doing a high altitude, 50,000 foot flight. Thats as high as we could legally fly without using a pressure suit. You had to get on down fast then, but this plane would operate beautifully between 40 and 50,000 feet. It had a wonderful Pratt and Whitney J57. I was doing some measurement, night measures, it was a nighttime project and I was flying, as I say, very high altitude, and I was taking pictures and taking radiometric infrared measurements of a missile being intercepted by another missile and that was quite an interestingat that time it was classified secret, and I got to get real up close and personal with a night intercept when it hit and as the missile reentered why the whole sky lit up. That was the last project I had at Raytheon. It was quite interesting. I had a lot of very interesting projects at Raytheon. One was funny; one time they sent us, sent an engineer and I down to Cape Canaveral to track an outgoing ICBM at night this engineer and I and the plane captain, we went down to NAS Sanford which is now where Disney Land East is, there was an air station there then, and we went in there and I landed this F3D with the engineer and went up to see the commanding officer of the base and he said, What are you doing here? and I said, Im out here on orders from inspector of Naval material, 1st Naval district in Boston for Raytheon, and we have a flight test were going to make, and he says, Well what are you doing? and I said, I cant tell you. Its classified. All I would appreciate is a place to park the plane and some fuel and a starting unit, and if you have a spare bed in the BOQ for us thatd be fine. They were not very happy with me because were civilians and Im flying a Navy built aircraft and I wouldnt tell him what we were doing, but it worked, and we took off and midnight the next night or the night after we went up and I joined up, I mean I was by myself, I didnt join up with anybody, I went up and got back of about 50-60 miles west of Cape Canaveral and listened to the countdown and we were driving in at 35,000 and were all set waiting for the thing to lift off and then we track it, and all of a sudden the countdown is five, four, three, two, and then boom! The midnight, black midnight, turns to daylight just for an instant. The missile blew up on the pad and I mean it blew up and it lit up and my engineer says to me, Is that a hold? No hold, Id already dumped the brakes and pulled back the throttle and was going down back to land at Sanford. But, finally we got everything. We went up and chased one the next day in the daytime and we left. The commanding officer and the exec, they probably figured why we were there but I never told them. SM: What were thewere there any particular lessons or skills that you took away from your time at Raytheon that were helpful later on as a pilot for Air America? FB: I dont know, I cant really say there was one specific thing. I flew for them for 10 years at Raytheon, and when I left there just before my 37th birthday Id done a lot of interesting flying and a lot of ferriedtook the planes back and forth between Boston and Point Magu and so I became a better aviator. I learnedI got to fly with one man who was named Larry Hayward who is quite a fine man and a good pilot and one time we took a hot missile from Boston, Bedford, down to White Sands and I was with him one night and I wasright after I was hired I was flying co-pilot for him and I remember we landed at Lexington, Kentucky and gassed up. It was ten oclock at night or so, we flew all night to get it there, and when we started taking off Larry chopped the throttle and we stopped, and I couldnt see anythingI couldnt figure it out, and we taxied back in, and then we had a very thin coat of ram ice on the wings, and Larry said, You dont ever take off with ram ice or any ice. So we got the ice and took off, and boy he was right; he knew what he was talking about. I only iced up once in my life and that was at Raytheon, but it was not on takeoff, but I iced up in the B-26 once. I flew our B-26 out to Boeing with a part for the Hustler radar that we were involved in and on the way back this Invader, B-26 Invader that we were flying, it didnt have anyit was a World War II invader, it didnt have any boots on it or anything, just prop de-icing. We were over the Rockies at about 14-15,000 feet on oxygen coming home and we were doing about 200, 210 indicated up around 15,000 because the B-26 already moved out and all of a sudden I looked down and my airspeed was down around 170 knots. Id lost 50 knots. We were in the clouds, [?] and all of a sudden why we iced up and we had such a big load of ice there was nothing I could do but fly the airplane and hope that we didnt spin in and we camewe just descended, and we came out below the clouds in between the mountains in the valley. It wasnt our time to go, but boy, we got a load of ice like Ive never seen before since and thats the only time that I ever really got bad, bad icing. Just to show you, a little bit of [rime] ice, a little bit of thin ice on a wing can also be just as bad as a big load, you see? SM: Why, just because it disrupts the flow of air? FB: The flow of air, yes. You see, a wing, a propeller, a wing, the same thing; its a pressure, its a pressure-physics thing, the wind or the air takes less time, it builds up less time to go over the bottom and the top and consequently theres less pressure, so thats where you get your lift. Theres less pressure on the top than the bottom. The propeller is the same way, so thats why you go forward. SM: Now Im glad you said that, propeller. I meant to ask you earlier; when you were making your decision about when you first went into the Navy and finished your basic flight and were going to advanced flight, was there an option to fly helicopters at that point? FB: An option to what? Im sorry. SM: To go helicopters. FB: No, there were no helicopters then SM: In the Navy? FB: in the Navy, or they were just experimental. But, when I went to my first Med cruise [1951], one of my classmates, Willie Wirt, Bill Wirt, he was the Ensign chopper pilot on the Roosevelt, and he ended up being the chief chopper pilot on the Roosevelt because the lieutenant chopper pilot that was in charge of our chopper on the way over, he got intohad a problem trying to make an emergency landing and couldnt. It took him an hour to do it. He was sent back to the States and Bill took over as an ensign and I got to ride with him when wed flywhen hed fly in the daytime. They never flew at night then, so I got to ride with Bill in the choppers. I just never liked choppers. Theyre wonderful, but when they crash, theres nothing left of them usually and also they shook too much! I didnt like them. God Bless Air America and all the chopper pilots that flew them, theyre fine folks, but I just never liked them. SM: And you never actually did fly one? FB: Oh I flew one, I flew one at Air America. I went off [?], and sure, I flew it, but I never flew it by myself. They asked me, they invited me and wanted me to go in it and I justit was never my cup of tea. SM: Well, is there anything else that you want to talk about with regard to your time at Raytheon or White Sands? FB: No, not really. I dont think its pertinent, or any more is pertinent to my work at Air America SM: Well how about just in the sense of aviation history? Was there anything? FB: Oh well, yeah, one timethis is just my own personal history. One time I picked up a Phantom. I checked out in a Phantom. I was the 36th pilot to fly it in November of 1959, and you just got in the plane and flew it at that time. It was just like when I checked out in everything; there were no simulators, no nothing, it was no big deal, and besides, jets are so simple. Anyway, I got to fly the F-4H it was called then, F-4H, one F, the fifth one built, and on my first flight I almost went super sonic just taking off; the thing just went up like a rocket. We didnt have anywe didnt have ABS brakes on the first ones, like you do on cars now. We didnt even have it on that then. I think I went through one set of tires the first flight trying to use the brakes until I could learn to use them, and then after that I got good. One time I had to go pick up I think the tenth F-4 at the factory at St. Louis and I brought it back and I told my boss George, George Bottjer, I said, Im going to try to set the world speed record going from St. Louis to Boston, just unofficially of course because I had two big drop tanks and I figured, Well, I can run it just under the number, just under Mach 1, because you dont want to go over Mach 1 because it causes too much of a sonic boom, so I said, Ill run it just under the number and try to get a tail wind, so I took off. I think it took me an hour and 18 minutes to Boston, but it was just kept betweenit was nothing official or anything, but that was some flight. Id call down and Id tell Cleveland Center, This is Navy whatever my number was, I forget, Estimating such-and-such a place in ten minutes, and theyd come back and say, Say again? Say that again? Repeat. What did you say? and Id say, Im estimating air in ten minutes. Ordinarily it would take 20 minutes, but the thing was really moving out. Also, I took it up to Machover Mach 2 on a couple of flights. One time I had to do a high altitude, high Q test and I was by myself and I took off and flew down tohad to do this over the water like I told you, and so we didnt want to make sonic booms then because it could break windows and plaster and all that, so I took off and I headed down towards Otis Air Force Base which is by Hyannis where Kennedy was from then, just so youll know where Im talking about, down in there, and I took off and by that time I got up to 35-40,000 and went into burner and both engines and finally got it accelerated above Mach 2 and theyre telling me to read all this information back and I went from right off of Cape Cod down there to up by NAS Brunswick-Maine in less than six minutes. It was 125 miles in five minutes, nautical miles that is, and then of course then I had to turn it back to Bedford and land because I was almost out of fuel because when youre going that fast in the F-4, or most of the jets, your gas is goingyou can see the needle going down so fast you can believe it. So, the whole flight was 30 minutes and I landed with maybe 1500 pounds of fuel, which is not much, whereas your super sonic, like the SST, the Concord, it has engines that are more efficient, more fuel efficient; the faster it goes, the higher it goes, which is hard to understand, but its true. Its not true with what we flew. SM: No. Now how smooth was that ride, going up over Mach 2? FB: Oh, you dont evenitsno, you just see the gauge, you cant believe the gauges. Its no shake, no nothing. Sometimes wed have a cloud go over the canopy as a shock wave. If its just right you can see wing tip [vortice]. I dont know if you know what Im talking about. SM: Yes, I do. FB: Okay, shock wave, if its just right moisture will condense and whether it was F-3H or even the F-8any plane that goes above Mach 1, why you can get a bump or a little cloud across the canopy, but after you go past Mach 1, its smooth. SM: When you mention a cloud going over the canopy, is that kind of like a ring that surrounds the whole aircraft or is it just on top? FB: I dont know, I really cant tell you. Ive seen pictures of it since then, a couple recently as a matter of fact, theyre beautiful. Youre busy; when youre doing something, youre busy really. Theres some things you just cant enjoy. You just know that theres a bump or a cloud or something. It would be hard for me to explain it to you. I can explainfor instance, like one time I saw the aurora when I was up on a cruise above the Arctic Circle on the Midway one night, while I was up in the Sky Ray [Skyraider] or the AD-4N flying off the Midway and all of a sudden we saw I mean I saw, and my crewmen saw, and from the back the aurora, and it was the most spectacular northern lights Id ever seen. It looked like pipe organs, huge pipe organs dancing up and down, changing colors and it was spectacular. Now that I had time to see and look at because I wasnt busy. It was just nighttime and I was on my mission, whatever it was, I guess it was a radar mission. SM: Now for Raytheon, and I understand that you cant talk about this type of stuff, but I was curious, did you do many tests for intelligence gathering equipment on various platforms, signals or photo reconnaissance? FB: No, I didnt do any of that. I did photoI did reconnaissance and that kind of stuff in the Navy in the AD when wed take off and when we were over off of the border there north of Greece and back after World War II. The squadron I was in had counter measures equipment in the back of the AD-4Q Sky Raider and wed take off and one time I remember we launched a whole air group towards the border and got them to turn on the radars and we got recorded all the information which is exactly whats been going on and done for some time, and thats probably what happens over in China right now with the EP3 type of thing. Collections of intelligence would go on forever as long as were around. Sure, I did that, but not with Raytheon. SM: You didnt test equipment, that was all. FB: Oh you mean test the equipment for that? SM: Right. FB: No, to my knowledge, no, I never did anything with that type of equipment. SM: By 1965, in 1965, you left Raytheon FB: No, 1965. SM: Yeah, 1965. FB: Oh, okay. SM: You left Raytheon and joined up with Air America. FB: Can I stop right now just for a minute? SM: Oh of course. Let me go ahead and pause it. Thank you very much. This will end the first interview with Frank Bonansinga. This is Steve Maxner continuing the interview with Mr. Frank Bonansinga on the 16th of April 2001 at approximately 9:15 Lubbock time. Sir, why dont you go ahead and begin by discussing the incident involving the cowling falling off of the aircraft you were flying. FB: Okay. I had left the Navy and got a job with Raytheon in 1955 and a couple of months later, I was flying as target for a radar evaluation flight at about 10,000 feet in a F-6F Hellcat. And all of the sudden, the cowling ripped off and came back and covered the cockpit, covered the canopy so that I couldnt see out ahead. I could just look to the side. I was out about 25, 30 miles from Bedford and the engine started, it cooled down immediately and started cutting out. It was in February, if I remember correctly, so it was quite cold up there at that time, even at altitude, of course. The engine was missing and cutting out so I headed back to Hanscomb Field and kept it running by pushing the RPM way up and trying to make it run as hot as I could without going too fast because I didnt want the cowling to rip off completely and might take off the tail. I finally got it back and dropped down and since I couldnt see out to make a regular landing, I came in and I made like a carrier landing. I came in over the tower. I came in right over the field and came around low and I kept looking out the left side of the cockpit in a turn, had the gear and flaps down, canopy open, of course, and brought it around and made what we call a FCLP, Field Carrier landing and took my own cut and landed and taxied in. It was no problem, but when I got in, its interesting. Id been in the Navy for ten years, but at Raytheon, when I got back, the mechanic, the plane captain, he was fired on the spot because he had not hooked up that cowling properly. That was a memorable little flight. SM: Yes sir. There was no permanent damage to the aircraft? FB: No. They just replaced the cowling and had to get a new cowling and that was it. SM: When that kind of incident happens, is there anyway that youre trained to deal with that prior to it, or it happens, you make a split second decision and thats it? FB: Well, its pretty hard to train for that. No. Its just one of those things that happens. You do what you do. Thats one thing about flying. Flying is basically really very simple, probably easier than driving a car or riding a bicycle. Once you learn it, you never forget. The only thing thats bad about it is when things go wrong. You cant get out. SM: Was there anything else that you remember that you wanted to talk about with regard to your flying before you transitioned to Air America? FB: Not really. SM: Okay. Well, you went to Air America in 1965 and I was curious, what did you understand was happening in Southeast Asia, prior to actually joining Air America? FB: Not anymore than what everyone was reading about in the paper; the incident with the destroyers. Of course, I was familiar with the fact that French Indochina, that they were having a problem there for years because the French influence in Saigon, Vietnam, and Cambodia and Laos where the second languages in all those countries was French. The French, you had Michelin rubber and you had the French coffee and tea plantation owners. Many of the rice farmers in all the countries was French. We knew, I knew from my history that Ho Chi Minh actually helped us against the Japanese, so when he became communist and turned to Communism, why we supported the French. Thats about really what I knew about the build up. I got checked out in the F-86 by an Air Force fellow by the name of Art McNay at Hanscom field. He flew with me the same day I flew it. Later he became an airline pilot. He told me about CAT. Of course, I knew about CAT from World War I, excuse me, World War II when they were an offshoot of the Flying Tigers. When Art told me about CAT needing some pilots or whatever, at one time, I sent in a resume to Washington. I must have got the address from Art, so I had sent that in. Thats about how it happened and I thought no more about it. That was several years before. I was down at Holloman, flying an F-4D Sky Ray on a project for Raytheon, a night project. I got a telephone call from Washington from Mr. Dawson. What had happened is he had sent a telegram to my house, to my home and of course, I was TDY at Holloman, there at Alamogordo. He said, Give me a call. So I called his number and I told him I received a telegram from him but there was no way I could come to Washington for an interview because I was in the middle of a project for Raytheon. He said, Dont worry about that, he said, Why dont you call me tomorrow, he said, and Ill talk to you. So I did and we talked on the phone. He did all the talking. Hed talk and hed tell me about basically what the pay was, some of the things that they did, what they flew and that sort of thing. Then hes stop and say, Are you still interested? Id say, Yes. And hed keep going. After about 30 minutes, he hired me. I said, Okay, I said, The only thing is I cant, this was in April, I said, I cant come until my projects over because Ive got to complete it. He said, No problem. Thats basically how it started. Of course, they sent me the tickets and I had to go get shots, all kinds of shots. They sent me all kinds of literature, told me about the schools that were available and that sort of thing. Theres a lot of things he didnt and couldnt say because there were two, really two sides of Air America. One was transportation and cargo work and the other was kind of a classified portion. I found that out later. SM: When you said the classified portion, youre referring to the support provided to the CIA case officers on the ground in Laos and the intelligence? FB: Well, there were just some missions. Youve got to remember this. The Pacific Corporation, which was actually part of the Central Intelligence Agency, ran CAT and later Air America and Air Asia. Air America, the United States had to have and still does, has to have somebody, has to have a service available to be able to do things immediately. Some things, you just dont fly around in Air Force One or Air Force planes or military planes. You sometime have to do things that are on the QT. Thats the way it works in our country and probably other countries. You dont go around telling everybody what youre doing if you want to still be king of the hill and not get attacked like we did in World War II. Thats basically it. Of course, theres some things we did at Air America that are still classified to the point where it wont be talked about. Its just like, for instance, right now nobody really knows the true story on JFK. Somebody does, but theyre not telling for years. Thats the way it should be, at least in my opinion. I find nothing wrong with that. SM: Just out of curiosity, just in case people who read this or listen to this in the future are curious, are you referring to one of the most recent studies that was just published by a European think tank or something concerning the second gunman, there had to be a second gunman? FB: No, Im not really familiar with that, but I personally dont believe the Warren report myself. SM: The Warren Commission. FB: I was at Holloman the day that happened. I was flying and F-4D and landed and I couldnt believe it. SM: Why do you think the government hasnt been forthright with regard to the assassination of the President? FB: Excuse me, Im having a little trouble hearing you. SM: Oh certainly. Im sorry. Why do you think the U.S. government has not been forthright and truthful about the assassination of President Kennedy? FB: Im not saying that theyre not. All Im saying is the report that they have has not been divulged to the public. I understand theres some time frame thing where it will be down the line. Perhaps, I dont know, 10, 20 years, long after Im gone, Im sure, that it will be told for whatever reasons. I dont understand or pretend to understand some of it. I may not agree with it or I may agree with it. I just dont believe personally, that one man, that that man, Oswald did that by himself. In fact, he may not have done it at all. But, thats just my opinion. SM: Well, back to your introduction to Air America. Im curious, when you were talking on the phone with Mr. Dawson, correct? FB: Yes. SM: Did he tell you what aircraft youd be flying, what types of missions? FB: No. No, he did not. He just mentioned some of the planes. There was a Beech craft and there was all kinds of planes; the Helio and various aircraft. DC-3s and C-123s. Of course, I hadnt flown. I had been a single engine, mainly a carrier pilot. The only thing I had flown rather big was a Douglas B-26, I flew quite a bit at Raytheon. I was not a multi- engine pilot, but that didnt seem to bother them at all. They were more interested I think, in ex-military and that type of thing. I do know this. During the time I was finishing up my project at Holloman, when I flew the F-4D back to Bedford at Handscomb field outside of Boston, I was told by my boss, by the people that the FBI had been there and had been asking questions and checking security clearance. Even though I had had a topsecret clearance in the Navy, whenever you go from one outfit to another that has anything to do with the government where there might be some classified work, they check you out again. That didnt surprise me that that happened. SM: Was there anything in particular that you thought you might want to do as an Air America pilot? FB: I was rather, in a way, I really didnt know, but I was expecting that I possibly might be doing something to do with I had flown the Sky Raider and I had flown Bear Cats and that sort of thing and the B-26- in case they were involved, in case they were doing any of that type of work. I was kind of hoping I would get to do something to use my training as an attack pilot or a fighter pilot, if you will. I really wasnt surprised when I got to Taipei. I left on the first of July 1965 and I flew over on a Pan American 707 and we ended up going to Tokyo and spent the night and then we got on the CAT 880 Convair, beautiful plane. It belonged to CAT and flew us to Taipei. I was assigned while I was in Taipei. They saw I had quite a bit of time in the twin Beech, the C-45, in the Navy so I was sent to Saigon. I got sent down to Bangkok first. There was a ground school in Bangkok at the CAT building on Pat Pong road across from Maxs bar. Thats where we all went. I went to ground school there for a week or ten days and went through various training. Jungle survival training was one, a little bit of that. We studied. I think I had some ground school in the C-45 that Air America called the ten two for 10,200 pound gross limit. Called them 10-2s. Then an Apache and some various aircraft. On the 16th of July I hopped on a Caravel [French], Air Vietnam Caravel and went into Saigon. I remember as we got in there just at dusk, I looked out the window and theres a B-45 making a straffing attack right off the wing on the airport. I said, Wow. We landed and nobody met me. I couldnt believe it. I was by myself. In Tokyo they met us and in Taipei they met us. In Bangkok, I got met. When I got to Saigon, nobody was there. I went through Customs and the whole bit and by now, it was dark. I didnt know what to do, so I got a taxi. I said, Well, Ill just go down town and start from zero the next morning. On the way out in this taxi, I happened to look out at the airport and I saw a C-46 with great big Air America on the side of it. I said, Stop! I paid him, I got out of the taxi and I had my bags in my hand and I went to this gate and the guard there, he let me through and I walked through the planes and up the ramp to this building. It was dark by then. Thats how I made my entrance that day. The next morning, Jim Russell took me up in a Beech craft and gave me a ride, put me in the left seat and had me fly it. Of course, it was no problem flying it. He put me into the twin Beech program and for the next week, I flew with Captains all over the country. They wanted to make me a captain in a week and I asked Jim, I told Jim and the acting chief pilot, Harry Hudson from Tachikawa. We used to call him, lovingly, Tache Fats. He was an ex CAT pilot. I said, Do you mind if I have a few more days. I really dont know the country. Believe it or not, we went into a lot of different strips all over the country and it was kind of tough learning them. They said, Yeah. Well give you a couple of days. Well, they gave me two more days. On the 26 I took a check ride and on the 27thth, I became a captain. I really didnt know the country all that well. I thought Id done some flying until I went with Air America, because I flew like 17 straight days. The next day, when I made captain, I went out and had a 17 leg flight, 17 landings, flew about six hours. Wed take off early in the morning and wed come back at sunset or maybe after dark. I lost ten pounds in the first six weeks I was there. We didnt eat. Wed get up real early. I was staying at the Majestic Hotel down on the Saigon river and theyd pick me up [in Air Americas VW minibus] and wed go out, pre-flight the plane and see what we were doing and go through a flight information center debriefing and then go get in the plane. At that time, lots of times, you did your own refueling out of barrels, hand pumped. There was no place to get anything to eat. I remember, we didnt have any uniforms when I first got there. There were about 35 pilots when I got there and everybody was busy. You didnt eat lunch, so when we got back at night you went home and went back to the hotel and ate and crawled into the sack and did it again the next morning. I didnt have a day off until I think, about the first of August and I went right back flying again another week. I had like, 70 hours the first 14 days at Air America in July. I hadnt flown that much since I had been in the Navy ten years before. That was my introduction. SM: Let me take a step back real quick. I was curious about the jungle training you received and how long that was. FB: It was a minor thing. Youre talking about survival if you happen to go down into a jungle or that type of area, how you would have to probably eat things like worms and snakes and spiders and whatever you could eat. You maybe take a little bite of something and see if it made you sick and if it didnt, you ate it. The same old bit wed had like I was a Navy pilot. Why you never want to get caught. You want to evade and if you do get caught, you try to escape. Its called escape and evasion. It was a brief course like that. SM: Did they have a mock POW camp set up for you? FB: Pardon me. SM: Did they have a mock POW camp? FB: No, no. This was all in the classroom. SM: Just out of curiosity, you were trained initially at a CAT base. What did you think were the difference between CAT and Air America? FB: Civil Air Transport was originally, Civil Air Transport was an off shoot of the Flying Tigers that happened after the Chinese took over China and CAT, Civil Air Transport, moved to Tainan in Taiwan or Formosa. CAT was funded originally by the OSS, but then when the CIA came into the OSS, it was restructured after World War II and that came into effect. You still had to have people and aircraft to do various things in that part of the world, so CAT also had an airline and it also had pilots and planes doing covert, special work. When the Korean War came about, youve got an off shoot of Air America involved later and that became more of the special work. They were the same thing. Its just like a name change. CAT, basically, was the airline until Civil Air Transport in Taipei had an accident and the aircraft was destroyed and pretty much the airline went out of business. SM: What were your first impressions upon arriving in Saigon, just in terms of the physical aspects of that country, the smells? FB: I grew up in New Orleans after we moved [from Los Angles]. I mentioned earlier that we moved to New Orleans and it was really similar. The French influence, the architecture, high ceilings and the climate was almost identical. The Saigon River looked like the Mississippi. You had roaches and you had the whole bit and it rained everyday. It was hot. It was very similar, quite similar to New Orleans and the Bayou country. For instance, the Delta in southeast Asia was similar to the Bayou country in southern Louisiana. There was a lot of similarity in that respect. That I can tell you. The architecture and a lot of the food, the French food. SM: You mentioned earlier, youd go back to the hotel and eat dinner. Was that like a hotel restaurant that served western food? FB: Id just have it brought up to my room. No. It was all French. I started eating a lot of the local food. I didnt really care too much for the Vietnamese food. I really didnt learn to like it in the two years I was there, although I did learn to like the Thai food. Of course, Chinese food, I always liked. But the Vietnamese have a different type of menu and I certainly didnt do it. Ill tell you what, when I had a day off, we had a pass to go to the officers hotel. I cant remember the name of it, but wed go up on the top deck. It was about a five-story building. Up on the top, they had a restaurant and they had a bar and slot machines and pin-ball machines and it was cool up there, cooler. I used to like to go up there and have a hamburger. If I had a Sunday off, Id go up there and have brunch, have a morning brunch. That was pretty good food, most enjoyable. SM: I was curious about the C-45. What was its role in terms of the types of missions that you used the C-45 for, the areas where you were flying into, and stuff like that? FB: The C-45 was the work horse. We had more of those than anything. We flew it basically, by ourselves. It was a lot of work because you had to not only find the places and land and I might mention on my first day out, I went into a place called Gocong which was down in the Delta and it had a 1,500 foot strip that was about 70 foot wide. It was just like landing on a carrier. I remember it was a dirt strip. I remember the people, they had a big fence, like a railroad, up and down, stopping to carve things to keep them from going on. I guess it was a pathway from one place to another. The C-45, if you landed it like a tail dragger, like a regular airplane, not a tricycle, and if you kept the yoke back in your lap and you brought it in, you could land that C-45 in a really short strip. So thats what we did. We went in, we took in cargo, small cargo type things, but mainly people from the Embassy or from USAID or military folks and go into these various strips throughout south Vietnam and wed cover from way down in the southern part by Rac Gia all the way up to the north to Dong Ha. From flying one end to the other in a Beech craft will take you three hours. South Vietnam itself was quite large, long. We went into various. We had courier flights where wed make these drop offs. Various packages, papers. We had other flights that were special flights for an individual that we might have to take them to one specific location and sit there and wait for them type of thing. Then one time I took all the seats out and I must have loaded the back of the cabin of that C-45 with, oh it must have been 50 cases of beer. It was chock a block full of beer and I took it up to a team, to a bunch of Army guys that were in the middle of the II Corps northwest of Pleiku and landed up there. Boy, were they glad to see me. They were really glad to see all that beer. You never knew what you were taking. SM: In terms of the events that occurred while you were flying these particular missions, you mentioned before the interview, that at one point, it was in August, the door of your C-45 opened. Why dont you go ahead and describe that incident? FB: It was in August. It was about less than about two weeks after I made captain. Making captain meant going from like $650 a month to $1000 a month then, base pay. It was besides making money, you got to do your flying instead of riding co-pilot. What happened is I had a flight up by Da Nang to a place called Quang Tri and after I left off the passenger, I was supposed to go back to Da Nang and fly and then come back and pick him up. When I let him out of the plane and I pulled the air stair door up, apparently I didnt latch it properly, secure it. I turned it, but it probably didnt lock properly. After I took off, I got airborne and the door flew open and I was by myself as I mentioned. It was quite bumpy that day and I tried to trim the plane up and go in the back and close it, but I couldnt. It would have been disastrous. I was locked into having to take it back to Da Nang and land it. I landed it and I figured, well, Im back to co-pilot, because if you had an accident, you got demoted to co-pilot. I landed it and somehow it just barely, it didnt drag down and it didnt hurt it enough to cause in any damage. What little damage it was, we fixed it with a two by four and I reported it and they said, Never mind, keep flying. That was that. Right after that, I see in my log books that Im looking at here, it says, 31 August 10-2 number 9073 Zulu, Bill Mauser who was a brand new hire chopper pilot, ex Air Force was with me and I ran out of oil, the left engine ran out of oil and I had to make a single engine landing at Saigon. Things like that happened. I had some interesting ferry flights, too. I go to do that. I could tell you about that. SM: Im just curious, real quick about this engine running out of oil. If an engine, an aircraft engine ran out of oil, did it seize? FB: Oh yeah. It would seize. So if you happen to be watching your instruments, its just like in your car. If you shut your engine down before the oil cant do its job. The oil can still, theres enough lubrication in there, youll save your engine. You shut down the engine and youre driving your car. The same thing in an airplane. If you happen to see the oil gauge pressure going down and you feather the engine and shut it down, provided you got another engine, you can fly that thing on one engine, get it back and land it and save the engine. Thats what happened with me. Thats one thing you have to learn in flying is what they call an instrument scan. You really look at your instruments almost all the time. Youre looking out, you look at your instruments, youre looking out, you look at your instruments. I had an MGB and that happened to me a couple of years ago. I looked down and saw my oil pressure go down and stopped it and sure enough, the oil line had broken. I just fixed the line and stuck some oil in it, otherwise, it would have been good-bye engine. Thats how that works. SM: I was curious. You mentioned how easy it was to land a C-45 on a short runway. Was it a STOL capable aircraft, Short Takeoff and Landing? FB: No. The way we were taught to land, the way I learned to land in SNB and all tail draggers is you come in and you make a three-point landing. Thats how you land on a carrier. Thats the way we landed a Beech craft. Thats the way I was taught. We could take it in and plunk it down. Of course, you can always land it on the wheels on a 10,000 foot strip. Theres no problem. Thats the way to do. At Saigon, you didnt want to hold up traffic. You wanted to get on and in and out. When you needed to land in a short, short strip, the Beech craft was very good. The only bad thing about the Beech was it had a tendency to ground loop in a crosswind if you didnt get the yoke back in your lap and if you didnt pay attention to your knitting, itd ground loop on you. That happened to a bunch of guys, of course. I was fortunate I had my training and it paid off. I guess thats why I got stuck and assigned to the C-45. SM: When you were first active in country, how much interaction did you have with the Vietnamese people, Vietnamese civilians and anybody else? FB: I thought they were really neat folks. I remember we used to call the policemen white mice. I remember one day- I didnt have a car or anything- I got a ride with one in the back of his little motorcycle. He took me to town or I dont know. I thought the Vietnamese people were very nice. I flew a lot of them back. I remember there were two Vietnamese ladies, gals, young ladies that worked at one U.S. agency in Nha Trang which was east over on the South China Sea, maybe a 45 minute flight from Saigon. One night, it was right after we came back. I mean, soon after Id been made captain and I was bringing them back, just those two employees from Nha Trang and we were up around 7, 8,000 feet coming in over a radio station called Alpha Charlie, I think it was. It was just a beacon. All of a sudden, we were getting some ground fire, anti aircraft fire coming by and they said, Oh, look! Fireworks! Look at the fireworks. They didnt know what it was. SM: Were there any particular rules about your interactions with the Vietnamese people, in terms of the Air America corporate policy? FB: I never heard of any. We had many of them working for us. We never had any as our pilots working for us, but Im sure we had mechanics and they worked with us right away. No, I never heard of anything like that. SM: You mentioned just a moment ago that you started some ferry flights and I see in your log it was 16 September that you were on your first ferry flight. Why dont you go ahead and discuss what those were? FB: Okay. Air Asia, which was a huge company in Tianan, Formosa, or Taiwan, was an overhaul and repair base where planes came in for Air America and CAT and also it had a contract to the U.S. military to do O&R on the military aircraft. When a plane was purchased and needed, and of course the expansion was tremendous in July in the summer of 1965. Like I say, there were 35 pilots when I got there and when I left a year and a half later, there were 235 pilots. The number of planes went say like from 25 to 100 or more planes. These planes would come into the O&R at Air Asia and be modified and painted and the whole bit and theyd have to have somebody go up there and test fly it and then fly it back from Tianan across to Hong Kong and then down to Da Nang and from Da Nang to Saigon. It was an all day trip. I got sent up in my first flight, I see here it was on the 16th of September, pick up a 6154 Uniform, a C-45. I flew it back by myself and I RONed in Hong Kong which, ordinarily, they didnt want you to do that, but I did the first time. I really enjoyed it. It was a wonderful flight. I was by myself and I got to make another one and on that flight is really interesting. We usually took off about 8:00, 7, 8:00 in the morning and I looked down and I was going down south and cutting across [the South China Sea] into Hong Kong and it was sort of overcast, clouds, and I looked down through the clouds and I saw these thousands, hundreds, maybe a thousand junks as far as I could see. I had flown over and they had come out obviously from Hong Kong and it was a spectacular sight. I just wished I had a camera. It was the only time I ever saw that. It was really spectacular. SM: It was shortly after your first ferry flight that you were shot at, the first time you were shot at that you knew of. FB: The first time I was shot at was with the tracers, but the first time I was hit was. The first time I was shot at was with the two Embassy passengers, but the first time I was hit, the only time I was hit was on a Sunday. I remember Roger Vikre was flying with me and we had five passengers and we were looking for a place called Bak Liu and the weather was bad. We were both looking, couldnt find it. Next thing, somebody came up and said, Hey, I think were getting shot at. I said, Okay. We couldnt find it, so we went home and sure enough we had a hole through the tail. That was the only time I was hit and got my plane hit, but many others, they got hit and shot down. SM: That was the only time you were ever hit? FB: Yeah. Its the only time I was hit by enemy ground fire or anti aircraft fire an I was fired at many, many, many times, especially when we were flying in Laos. Thats a little bit later in the interview. SM: But even when you were in Laos, you never got hit? FB: Never. No, I never got hit once. SM: That is amazing. Now, you mentioned during your time in flying out of Vietnam, there was at one point you were shot at by what you thought was a kid. FB: Oh yeah. This one time I was flying out of Da Nang and I went up and went into Dong Ha which is right on the border, the demarcation [zone between North and South Vietnam]. I took off out of Dong Ha and Dong Ha was inland not too far from the ocean. So, I head on over to the ocean and then come down offshore. As I went over the beach, I happened to look down. It looked like a young kid was there. I thought he was waving at me at first. He was shooting at me. I could see the flash from the rifle. That little son of a gun. He didnt hit me though. That was something. SM: Did you have any particular expectations concerning what you would encounter when you arrived in Vietnam? FB: No. I really didnt. I wasnt shocked or anything. Ill tell you what, when I first got to Taipei, one of the Air America pilots had taken off out of Saigon and possibly hit and killed and shot down and that was the day I arrived in Taipei. I was aware of the fact. One of the pilots that came over with me, he was assigned to fly Helio Couriers up in Vientaine and I remember he just turned around and went home. I was kind of hoping I would get to go to Vientaine but they sent me to Saigon. I was still young then. I was still pretty much jingoistic. I was always for the country. SM: Do you know why the helio courier pilot went home? FB: He probably really didnt really want to go up there. They were getting shot at pretty regular and they were flying into some really tough strips. The people that flew the choppers, the H-34 pilots and the STAL pilots, mainly Helio Couriers then, the Porter was just coming in. They went into some pretty tough places. A lot of people dont realize, the war in Laos was bad or worse in many ways than it was in Vietnam and Cambodia. SM: Were you surprised at all, or did you understand what was going on on the ground in Vietnam or did you think you understood? FB: Oh yeah. I could see. Certainly. Oh yes. Theres no doubt. It was pretty tough to fight. You cant tell a good guy from a bad guy because the North Vietnamese and the South Vietnamese look alike. You cant go by looks, but we were trying to, what we thought was provide them with a backing so they would not become communistic. Okay, thats about the size of that one. Thats what I can tell you that we did. Im sure I must have carried an awful lot of VCs on R&R up to Da Lat because that was the R&R center of South Vietnam. But they got in the plane and you couldnt tell the difference between a good guy and a bad guy. I have one story about that. Da Lat was up in the mountains. Theres only a couple of times in my life I thought I had bought the farm and one of them was in Da Lat. We had to go into Da Lat and it was like a Shangri La type place and it was in the middle of the mountains. This one particular morning, it was really socked in. The only way we could get in is there was a radio station and wed shoot an ADF approach into it. The weather was, the clouds were right down in the mountains. This customer I had on board, he said he had to get there. I said, Boy, its going to be tough. He said, I really got to make this meeting. And I let him talk me into it and I made the approach and just thank God there were no rocks in those clouds because thats where a lot of guys got killed is flying through clouds and theres rocks in them, a mountain. That Da Lat was a wonderful place. I remember I loved artichokes, still do, and thats one of the few places where they grew artichokes in Vietnam. Tiny little things, though. It was a beautiful place. SM: When you say you were flying a customer into Da Lat, are you talking about the same kind of customer as they usually had? FB: Yeah. CIA. We called them customer. SM: So that relationship existed in Saigon, as well. FB: Oh, sure. I flew around several of the, Bill Hart and a whole bunch of folks. Youre aware of things like that. SM: When you were flying people like that and when you were not flying, if you were just hanging around talking with people like Bill Hart or other customers FB: No, no. I dont hang around and talk with people I fly with. SM: You never really were able to have conversations with them. Okay. How about with other Air America pilots? FB: Oh, certainly. SM: Did you guys talk about the political situation much, that is what was going on in Vietnam? FB: No more than you and I would talk about whats going on right now. No. I cant relate to that. SM: How about just in terms of intelligence briefings, where there might be heavy fire? I assume that type of activity was pretty common. FB: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Of course. The FIC, Flight Information Center folks are like your intelligence officers in the military where they would say, okay, before you go fly every morning. Youd say, well, I got a flight up to Dong Ha or Quang Tri or Qui Nhon or whatever, or Bac Lu, one of the many hundreds of places and youd go in there and thered be a big chart on the wall and thered be marks where there was ground fire or heavy artillery or maybe the field has problems. Maybe you dont want to go in or there was fire, they had a fire fight close by or they might tell you, Okay, before you land here, you want to come in and circle down right over the field. That sort of thing. We were briefed. Sometimes you dont get all the information because they cant know everything. SM: That information was probably extremely helpful in terms of you avoiding ground fire? FB: Oh, sure. Im sure it helped a lot. SM: Were you consistently debriefed after every mission so that you could provide the same information? FB: You would if you had something to say. You would go back to FIC and say, So and so and so and so. One time I was flying later on up in Laos. I had to report whenever we got some heavy AA fire, youd go back and say thats where you got it. The next people that were going up that way would know about it. SM: While you were flying out of Saigon, did you participate in a lot of special missions? FB: No. I dropped some leaflets one flight and I took the head man for the CIA in Ban Me Thout where they had a big affair for the Montagnard people from Cambodia and from Vietnam. I remember Ambassador Lodge was there and I flew some Congressmen around. Thats not even special. I wasnt involved in anything out of the ordinary, I would say. SM: Now, did you make rice drops and stuff like that, too. FB: Pardon me. Night drops? No. SM: No. Rice, rice drops. FB: Oh no. No, no. There were not drops in the C-45. The rice drops, if there were any, had to be in the DC-3 and the Caribou and the C-46 out of Saigon. Im sure that those folks did it. I didnt. I just wasnt that aware of what they were doing that much. SM: Before you left Saigon, you did start your training in the Volpar, is that correct? FB: Yes. They had a new aircraft at Air Asia that was, they called it a Volpar modification and two other gents, Lucky Waller and Paul Brousard and I were sent up to Tainan to take instruction in the new turbo prop conversion at Tainan. We were checked out by the chief pilot at Volpar, Dick Hanson and Air America check pilot, former Navy pilot, Rocky Myer. We had about three days. It took three days. We went down to Kao Chung, which was just south of Tainan and learned to land it and take it off and the whole bit. After, I think I had six, seven, hours, whatever, I was given a line check by a Don Kosteff [Air Americas chief check pilot] at Tainan. I got checked out in a Volpar called 95 Charlie. That was the beginning of what ended up being the aircraft I flew the most. I flew over 5,000 hours in it. So I ended up flying that until, pretty much until I left the company. It was quite a fine airplane because it made a twin Beech into a tricycle landing gear plane. Ill tell you just a little bit about that Volpar conversion. They took out the Pratt & Whitney piston engines, propellers and they put in Garrett turbo engines. Garrett originally was not meant for an airplane, it was a starting a generator type engine but it became a wonderful engine. They stuck more fuel in the tanks and they made a nose gear in the nose and what it did is it made the aircraft easier to land and take off. It gave it a little more, about ten to 15 knots increased in speed and longer endurance, as I mentioned, and basically the same cabin. You could still carry up to about 10 people in it. It had reversible full feathering propellers, Hartzell propellers which was good, although, it wasnt, you couldnt land it quite as short as a twin Beech. I found out later I could by bringing it in real slow and then sticking it on the end of the runway and then going to full reverse. It could land on a short strip. SM: The speed increase was only 10 to 15 knots faster. FB: That was just normal cruise. You could cruise it at 170, 180, close to 200 knots versus the twin Beech was 165, 170 [true out] knots. SM: How about the power of the aircraft in terms of climbing capability and stuff like that? FB: It was good. It had good power. The later Century Series engines were better than the first ones. We were pretty much a test area. I lost a couple of engines in the Volpar. Basically, it was a pretty good airplane. SM: How many engines do you recall, do you remember that you lost, just out of curiosity that were that first generation of Volpar? FB: Well, I remember I lost one with Clarence Beverly once up by Qui Nhon. I remember we took it down and landed it. We had a full load of people and we landed at Nha Trang and later on when I went to Thailand, I lost several. I think I only lost one engine I can remember in Saigon in 66 before I went up to Thailand in 67. SM: Before you went to Thailand, I think it was in March, you spent some time in Tainan instructing officers for the Volpar. Is that correct? FB: Yes. In March of 67, there was a project in Thailand and they wanted a pilot to go up and instruct them and I ended up being sent up there to check out these new pilots. It was Marsh and Graham, Burrows, Stevens. Im looking at my log book. VanHeusen, Matt Hoff, Cory, Gibson, Ray Hunt, [Dick] Rodgers, and another fellow named Rodgers, Ray Rodgers. I ended up giving them instruction to be co-pilots, first officers on a high altitude relay project that was scheduled. I went up and did that for a few days and then a couple of new planes for the project, they asked me to ferry one from Tianan to Udorn, non stop from Tianan to Berl and then from Berl down to Udorn which is only about a 20 minute flight. I did that. Thats how I ended up going to work for Jim Rhyne in Udorn. SM: This was in March. FB: As a matter of fact, the ferry flight was the 13th of March. I ferried 77 Zulu and Matt Hoff flew co-pilot with me. When I landed at Udorn that afternoon, it was a long flight, I met Jim Rhyne. We shook hands and I said, Boy, I sure would like to join your project. I didnt even know what it was, but I knew I wanted to get out of Saigon. I didnt particularly care for that. The flying was fine, but I just thought I would like to get into something I thought would be better. We shook hands and I went over to the bar, Club Rendezvous bar. That was the name of our bar, nice place to eat. It had a bar. I was having a beer and next thing I know, Jim Rhyne came over and tapped me on the shoulder and said, Youre mine. And I was. He got me transferred in less than an hour. He had made a call, obviously to somewhere. I started flying. I didnt go back to Saigon for a month. Finally, I went back and picked up all my clothes and took care of my apartment and then came back. I was working for Jim Rhyne in special projects there at Udorn, which was basically the biggest chopper base in the world, the free world. There was just a few fixed wing pilots and special projects and thats where I went to work. SM: This special project you were assigned to, this was the high altitude relay project? FB: Well, the special projects, one of the projects that they had was the HARP, or High Altitude Relay Project that I was training the co-pilots for and thats what I first ended up flying. We based out of Udorn and it was staged out of Savannakhet which is right on the river, just across the river from Thailand and Laos. Savannakhet had about a 4,000 foot strip. Thats where we flew our High Altitude Relay Project, which was quite an interesting project. Ill tell you about it. What it was, is wed load up the Volpar with as much as two tons of fuel. It was way over grossed. It had a special FAA clearance. Wed take off, in general, wed split it up into two flights. We just had one orbit point. It was out towards Ho Chi Minh trail. It was half way in between and we were relaying signals from the ground to a receiver station over probably at Nakhon Phanom. I really dont know where the relay station was. Wed climb up, take off say around 4:30 and climb up to 10,000 and then cruise climb up to 17 or 18,000 and relay these messages. Around midnight, another plane, Volpar would relieve the first one until 7:00 in the morning. It was that type of a mission. Every now and then, you had an all-nighter. You flew 14- hour flights. Youd take off at five and land at seven the next morning. I had several of those. In fact, I had three in a row one month. I had 42 hours by the 3rd of the month. Thats basically what we did on the High Altitude Relay Project, relaying information from ground troops, hidden ground folks about the quantity and number of trucks and that sort of thing that were going down the Ho Chi Minh Trail to Saigon. SM: Did you know if this was part of what they called Road Watch? FB: Certainly. Thats what led into everything that I did because after a while, very shortly after I got there, I was notified by Jim Rhyne that he wanted me to fly a B-26 which delighted me. I really enjoyed flying the Raytheon B-26. They had two of them. One test and one transportation. Thats how I went into that project. SM: Before we talk about the B-26, a couple of quick things about your Volpar HARP missions. What was the number of crew on board for those missions? FB: We had two pilots on the Volpar all-nighters, a pilot and co-pilot. There were no auto pilots, so we hand flew it. We had to wear oxygen. The tanks in the back, it had a 600 gallon tank and it reeked of fuel that wasnt perfectly vented. Wed take a sandwich along and we had a little john in the back, a little port-a-potty. I can remember flying a couple of nights where I never got out of the seat, not once. You saw the war, you saw the Namrod B-26s from NKP, Na Khon Phanom would be over there working and you could see them working and see the anti aircraft fire coming up at them. They got shot at a lot and they lost some. We could see all that. We never had any problem at altitude. We werent right there, but we could see many nights. We were vectored on radar and we stayed in like a square orbit, doing our job. SM: What altitude, typically, did you fly those HARP missions? FB: Wed start out around 10,000 and cruise climb as were burned down fuel because we were so heavy and as we lightened we kept climbing up and by the end of the night, wed be up around 17, 18, 19,000 feet, hardly using much fuel. The reason you do that is to save fuel. We always got back with plenty of fuel. I never wanted to tell them I could fly longer, though. SM: How would the relays actually be handled? Was it by you and the co-pilot or was it automatic? FB: No. It was an automatic, an automatic relaying device that went through a special radio and we could hear a little jingle, Hunting we will go, hunting we will go, that popped through our earphones each time a message went through. We had no idea what the message was. It was coded. SM: Fascinating. So instead of you hearing nothing or hearing static, youd hear a jingle, Hunting we will go. FB: Just a little Hunting every time a message went through our plane, we heard it. Sometimes there were a bunch and sometimes there werent very many, but most of the time, there was a lot. Lets face it. Thats how they supplied all the troops was down that trail. Everything that the Air Force and everybody tried to do to stop it, they couldnt. SM: Thats an interesting perspective. FB: Thats a lot of what it was all about right there, what we did. SM: So based on your understanding of the amount of traffic, it was almost a futile effort to try to stop it. FB: Well, it proved that. It proved to be futile. We did not stop resupplying of the Viet Cong from North Vietnam. We did not. Boy, we tried. I ended up, as I told you, I ended up going into the B-26 and Id like to take a stop now. SM: Im sorry. Its been a little while. Just a moment. [take break] Could you give an approximate number to the number of HARP missions that you flew? FB: Maybe 20. SM: As you said earlier, for a majority of them, there was quite a bit of radio traffic that you were relaying. FB: Yeah. There was traffic almost every flight, some more than others. SM: Since you were flying at such altitude, did you ever get shot at that you knew of? FB: No, never. SM: Were you ever warned or given briefing before one of these missions that the North Vietnamese might have a more powerful AAA threat in an area and so youd have to stay away from it? FB: No. We had a north station orbit covering and then we had a southern station vector orbit point later on down South off of Pakse north or Savarravan. Neither orbit that I ever heard of any anti aircraft fire. SM: Did you fly any other special missions or special types of missions before you transitioned over to the B-26? FB: No, just that. SM: Just the HARP missions. Why dont you go ahead and describe the B-26 transition and what your primary missions were flying the B-26s? FB: In the end of May, a B-26 showed up on the ramp, a 598, a blue aircraft. Very unusual unmarked configuration. It had a ramp in the back. It had been modified at Marina in Arizona and flown over from there. The B-26 was modified with a Terrain Following Radar [TFR], the same radar that the F-111 had. It was a fantastic radar that you could get right down on the deck and hand fly it or couple it to the autopilot and it would fly you between the mountain tops or the peaks or whatever. In the back, as I mentioned, it had a built in cargo ramp, a small one. We only carried two pallets, two drop loads in the back of the 26 and it would drop out. As far as the aircraft modifications, we had two tip tanks and we had reversible full feathering props. The back of the plane was similar to the On Mark that I flew at Raytheon in as much as the cabin door was the same and you had to kind of get down on you hands and knees to crawl into the main spar. The entrance between the cabin and the cockpit was not the greatest thing. You couldnt stand up to get in. You had to get down on your hands and knees and crawl up to the cockpit if you understand what Im saying. It had two sets of controls. The co-pilot flew with you. It was behind the captain, left seat. There was a little bench for the navigator. The fourth crewman was a kicker, what we called the kicker. He pushed the load out when we got over a [drop] zone. Basically, thats what the plane came for; to make low level night drops to resupply the people that were counting the troops and trucks and bicycles and everything going down the road. They had to be out there and they were behind enemy lines, so to speak, and they had to be resupplied with food and whatever else they needed; ammunition, radio. Thats what the mission was. Apparently, I got picked for it because I had flown the B-26 and I took flight training from Don Gearke. He checked me out in it and I flew with Berl King an awful lot and I flew a flight with Gene Hughy. One night, Berl and I were out by Savannakhet practicing night drops to a little base there when all of a sudden we started getting shot at. Tracers came whooping by so we left and came back. After we landed, Berl and I went over to the bar, Club Rendezvous bar, and found out that our troops had gone out and taken care of all the people that were trying to come in and were shooting at us. Thats the only time I remember getting any ground fire. That was on a practice drop. I got checked out on that B-26 and made some flights. Wed load up at AB-1 cargo ramp there across from Air America in Udorn and get briefed. Wed have to find the drop zone which was usually a very small, open area, where theyd leave out a series like a T or an X. Wed go over it one time and if we didnt see it, that was it. You didnt make a second pass. It compromised them and also we could pick up ground fire. The B-26 dropped, unfortunately, at a high drop speed, at 140 knots. This is because the single engine speed, instead of 121, like in a regular B-26 invader, it was higher because it was a heavier aircraft. The single engine speed is the speed at which one engine will keep the aircraft flying. Consequently, dropping in the B-26 was difficult because it had kind of a tough nose to see out of; something like flying the Corsair or the F-4U Cosair carrier. You had to keep it in a turn to see out. Well, the same thing was with what we call the Blue Goose. The Blue Goose, you had to kind of skid it, turn it, and come in that way to see the DZ. It didnt prove as practical. It didnt get the job done, so they just went back to the regular night drop aircraft, the DC-3, the Caribou and the C-123 and later, perhaps, the Otters. I dont know. Everybody didnt know everything and yet there was still a need to know and there was a lot of things that I didnt know what went on. SM: Do you know why they tried to introduce the B-26 into this type of operation? Since the other aircraft were working well enough, why did they go to this? Do you know? FB: I have no idea. They probably thought it would be a good idea to be able to get in and get out and not get shot at near as much as the other aircraft who came in and didnt have the Train Following Radar [TFR]. SM: Did the B-26 have automatic pilot? FB: Oh, yeah, but I almost never used it. I actually hand flew it. SM: But this is unlike most of the other aircraft as we talked about before and that you mentioned earlier, the Volpars did not. FB: No. None of the C-45s or Volpars had autopilot. They were taken out if they had them at all installed. The C-45s and Navy SNBs and some of them had autopilots at Tainan, at Air Asia, apparently they were removed. It was just one less piece of equipment to have to maintain. They werent the best in the west although, later on I bought, after I left Air America, I bought a twin Beech E18S and it had a fine autopilot. It worked nice. SM: Im curious, especially in the Volpar, when you were flying all nighters, it would seem to me that having an autopilot might be a really nice feature on an aircraft even though it might add to the maintenance. FB: Well, we had two pilots. So when I didnt fly, he flew it. It was no problem. SM: I take it you did take shifts like that. FB: Oh, sure. SM: What did you use primarily to stay awake and alert for a 12-hour night mission like that or did you use anything? FB: It was no problem staying alert. Every now and then youd take a quick practice nap. You didnt nap but youd close your eyes and listen to the radio. I had a low freq radio and I could pick up Manila and Voice of America every now and then. Wed listen to the ball scores or the news or something like that, but in general, the vectoring and the whole bit, none of us had any problems staying awake. Youve got to remember I was younger then, too. SM: Now, you mentioned listening to the radio in terms of broadcast radio. Was that pretty consistent while you were flying? FB: Always, even in the Navy, you had a coffee grinder, low freq range receiver. Youd go to the end of it, right at 550 and usually there was a radio station somewhere down there. I can remember when I was a Navy pilot flying up over Yankee stadium at 10,000 feet in the 50s. I listened to a Yankee game on a low freq radio station one time when I had to kill some time, looking down there. Of course, I couldnt see. The field looked like the size of a postage stamp, but I was listening to the game and supposedly watching it. Listening to the radio and flying at the same time is no problem. Its not like in a car where you got to using cell phones where you have to have you hands on the wheel and try to talk at the same time. It just isnt a safe practice. But, flying, we had a head set and you could listen and pilots learn to do that. SM: For those Volpar missions, how cold would it get in the airplane? FB: It got cold. We had no heater. It also got wet. When we did get rain, the rain always came through the windshield and yes, it was cold. SM: It came through the windshield? FB: We dressed warmly because you lose approximately three degrees per thousand feet as you go up. You go up 10,000 feet, theres 30 degrees. SM: The rain would come in through the windshield? FB: That was pretty much standard. They did their best. SM: Not a whole lot or just a little or was it a lot? FB: Enough to wet up you flight suit. Whenever they got a heavy rain, it just came in. SM: I would imagine, some of the weather there in Laos and Thailand and Vietnam, there would be significant tropical storm activity, the lightning and stuff like that. FB: The weather in that part of the world on a comparative basis is much less violent. Storms, for instance, the United States is one of the few countries that has tornadoes. Also, the thunderstorms in the United States, I can remember flying an F-4 and I couldnt get over the top of it up around 45,000, that sort of thing, whereas in southeast Asia, a cumulonimbus or thunderstorm seldom got up to 30,000 feet. You didnt have the same kind of weather. You get more of a monsoon, much more of a rainy type thing. You dont have the violent frontal mixes of warm air coming up from the Gulf of Mexico and then your cold arctic air coming down through Canada meeting and causing, if I can explain this to you, what makes severe weather, thunderstorms and tornadoes. That part of the world, it was really in general, we hardly ever missed any flights because of weather. It was amazing. When it rained, it seemed, in general, it rained at night and stopped raining at sunrise. You get your cumulus afternoon clouds. SM: You mentioned earlier that the Volpar was outfitted with an extra fuel tank and everything else and it was, you mentioned that it was, I guess, was a special exception to the FAA regulations and whatnot concerning that particular aircraft. Were FAA regulations a consisting concern for Air America and the? FB: Oh, sure. The FAA regulations were abided by and waivers whenever anything out of the ordinary, for instance, we had to get an over gross waiver to fly the Volpar because it was AN registered aircraft. Any aircraft that has an AN number is U.S. registered and has to abide by various rules. If the Air America didnt want to do that, then they could have got X experimental type licenses or, in some cases, they could have got them licensed outside of the United States because Air America did have some aircraft that were registered in China and Taiwan and also in Laos and I think we even had some French registered planes. Not any of the C-45s or Volpars that I flew. Every airplane that I flew for Air America had a USN registration. SM: When you finished flying the B-26s you had a number of engine failures. I was curious if that might have contributed also to the decision to get out of the B-26 resupply drop. FB: You mean the customer and the company, getting out of it, their reason? SM: Yes. FB: It was not my reason. SM: No. FB: I dont know. It could have been. I wasnt consulted. I dont know. All I know is that the experiment wasnt successful and as far as the engine failures went, Im sure it might have had some contributory factor. I certainly enjoyed flying it. SM: You went from the B-26 back to the Volpar, but for a different mission, correct? FB: Yes. What happened was from March until October, I guess my last flight was the 7th of October 1967 and it was a night drop on the trail. Terry Luther was flying co-pilot with me and Ray Fine was the navigator and Cliff Hamilton was the kicker that night. That was the last flight. We hit the DZ. But then on the 24th of October, there was about a 17-day period there where I didnt fly it although I did most of the flying in it. On the 24th of October, I see in my log book, it says, flew 42 Zulu with Berl King. It was first of the photo mission. I flew co-pilot with Berl and went up on my first mission with him in the Volpar and it was 42 Zulu and wed take off out of Udorn about 8:30 and get up and wed be briefed for various missions, mostly almost all of it in Laos. It was like between a six, seven, as much as eight hour flight. Most of your photographs were taken, the best time would be, obviously between nine and three when the sun is kind of overhead. SM: That last B-26 resupply night drop that you did, do you know what you were dropping? FB: No. We never knew what we dropped. We didnt talk to the people on the ground. There was no communications with them. We were just given a DZ, a location and we briefed and we had one or two pallets. Sometimes we dropped one at one place and then wed go to another drop zone and drop the other, but in general, you just dropped one at each DZ. It could have been food, it could have been hard rice, which is ammo. It could have been Playboy magazines. I dont know what it was. Clothes, medicine. SM: For the photo reconnaissance flights that you flew starting in October and I guess that probably was what you did for pretty much the remainder of your time? FB: Yes. Thats basically what I did. I flew 569 photo reconnaissance missions between October of 1967 and my last flight was in March of 1973. Thats basically what I did. There were some other missions, but they were what we call Mickey Mouse and that was not for this interview. SM: When you were flying the photo reconnaissance missions, were they principally out of Udorn? FB: They were all out of Udorn. SM: They were. Okay. FB: Yes. You see, the Air Force was a joint Thai- U.S. military base. They had one 10,000 foot strip. When I got there, they had F-101 Voodoo photo reconnaissance aircraft doing this kind of work so there was a huge photo lab there, an Air Force photo lab, so it worked perfectly for us to do photo work. You probably question, you say, Why would Air America in a Volpar be doing photo reconnaissance work when youve got F-101s and youve got F-8U crusaders doing it off of carriers and you have Air Force 101s and then you also have U-2s and that sort of thing. Why use us? Well it was very simple. We, the photo recce pilots, and there were only two or three of us, didnt rotate. We didnt go back home after a year. We did it day in and day out. We flew everyday. The plane flew everyday and when it was down for maintenance, they got a backup plane, 71 Charlie and it had the holes cut in the back for the cameras, so it was a continuous effort. We got better pictures, believe it or not, than the people with the fancy cameras with our World War II Fairchilds and one RC-8 camera. We had about six cameras. Well, four for sure. We got better pictures. Thats why we had the mission. SM: Were the pictures better because of the speed you were flying or the altitude? FB: No. It was because we could find the targets. Its a question of finding. When you have something to photograph, lets say its a road. Well, a road, thats easy. Once you find the road, you follow it. You make sure your wings are level each time the camera clicks and you overlap. The reason you overlap your pictures is so you get a 3D presentation. As long as you have two pictures and they overlap, its just like your eye. The photo technician who looks at it, he looks at it through a special glass and then it makes a three dimensional picture. All the pictures are black and white, theyre not color. We could find places in the middle of nowhere that the other pilots couldnt find because we got to know the country like the back of our hand. Even then, I can remember not finding a place. In the jungle, sometimes its tough to find something. We flew at about 7,000-7,500 feet above the ground. We flew slow, about 140 knots. We were slow and we got shot at a lot. There was no doubt about it. When you have to fly straight and level, youre an easy target. But, I never got hit. We had an awful lot of anti aircraft fire and every now and then, Dave Waters who flew an awful lot with me as co-pilot, first officer, hed say, Oh. Theyre coming up our rear end. Then youd break off. SM: The triple A that you would receive typically, what was it? FB: I dont know. You cant hardly tell. Just explosions in the air. Usually it was 37mm and it could have been 100, but most of it I imagine was 37 or a comparable type explosives. At night, you could see the tracers and that helped. But in the daytime, you couldnt see the tracers, you just saw the air bursts. The worst I ever saw was one time Gene Thomason and I had a mission and we were fragged to go up in the northwestern part of Laos and there was a brand new bridge up there coming off over one of the rivers. I cant remember which one it was. It wasnt the Mekong. They told us to go up there and this one particular day, instead of flying at out normal 10, 11,000 feet, they said, We suggest you go up to 15, 16,000. I should have known something was funny because it took us an hour to get up there. I remember just clear as a bell. Gene reached over and turned on the inner velomiter that takes the pictures and I just rolled in and was just starting to make the run when all of the sudden, we got pretty heavy triple A. In fact, it was above us, below us, right, left. It was all around us. The only pictures they got that day was pictures of the horizon as I left. They never sent us back there. Whoever it was, they were really proud of that bridge, their brand new bridge. They had it protected. But, in general, we just got, I would just say normal, getting shot at anti aircraft in the daytime. SM: The log that you provided for me in the email, you mentioned just some of the triple A that you received throughout 1968-1969, again this was a period where you were flying, I would imagine, just about everyday. FB: Id fly maybe half the month. Id probably fly between 10 and 15 missions a month. It varied. We split it up. You got to figure, I flew, what, 569 missions over not quite six years. Its not quite a hundred missions a year. Remember, Id go home for a month every year. Youd have a little R&R, scheduled time off, STO, and go out and relax and go to Bangkok or Id go play golf with Berl. Wed go down to Singapore, whatever. SM: Thats what you typically did with your R&R time? Youd just stay in the area? FB: No. No, I didnt stay in the area. SM: No, I mean in Southeast Asia. FB: Oh yeah. Usually, Hong Kong was great. Id go over to Hong Kong and watch some English TV. In fact, I saw The Graduate there once. Fly over, spend the day and there was a place called the San Francisco Steak House, stay on this Chinese side and it was a wonderful restaurant. Id go have two meals there, eat a lot of steak and salad and watch TV. It was a good shopping city, too, then, of course. Thats what R&R. Thats really what it was, just get away from it all. SM: What would you do for entertainment in Thailand? FB: Oh, we drank. We went to the bar. When we came back, shoot and talk and play darts and have our beers and eat, go hit the sack. I played a lot of chess. I played chess then. I guess thats about it. I had my own little typewriter. Id type letters back. There was TV, but it was Thai TV. I do remember the day that Neil Armstrong walked on the moon. We got to see that. They piped that in. I remember that quite well. SM: What did you think? FB: I thought it was fantastic. He was a former flying midshipman like me, too. SM: What about, again radio, the use of radio for entertainment purposes? FB: Oh, yeah. I had a high freq radio and I listened to a lot of news radio on Armed Forces radio and that sort of thing. In fact, to this day, I still listen to the radio quite a bit. I enjoy radio, ESPN. I even have the short wave, but of course, I dont listen to that anymore. I like radio. SM: When you were in Thailand, could you pick up Radio Hanoi? FB: No. I never tried. SM: You mentioned that you would go home for month long vacations, leave time, youd go back to the U.S. for that? FB: Oh, yeah, sure. Id go back and see my kids. My wife and kids never came over. My first wife, Joyce, never. They visited. The kids came over but they didnt go to school although Air America had pretty good schools at Udorn and in Vientiane and of course, at Udorn, I know. They had very good schools. It was accredited and an awful lot of kids went to grade school and high school. But, sure. Id go back and see my parents and my first wife and I who were separated and my three children. SM: When you would go back to the U.S., what did you think about what was happening there, especially as the war lasted into 1966,67, 68 and on and the antiwar protests were getting more volatile and stuff like that. What did you think about all that? FB: I didnt particularly, I wasnt sympathetic to them. I understood their dislike of the war. I didnt particularly care for it. I know that we were unpopular. Air America people were unpopular and the troops were unpopular. It was just a Yankee go home feeling that was back in the States. I didnt let it bother me. I knew it was there. SM: Did you yourself ever question what the United States was trying to accomplish in Southeast Asia? FB: Not really. I questioned how. I questioned the fact that we couldnt win the war because of the politics involved. After World War II, it just became impossible to try to win a war it looked like to me. I can remember one time out on a recce mission, I found a bunch of trucks going down, I think it was highway 9 in Laos and I found them. I called up on UHF and told the High Altitude Relay control aircraft that Id found some trucks. He went about the business of trying to get a strike out there, but by the time it went through all the red tape rigmarole, it was too late. Everything had to be cleared. You just couldnt go out. SM: So, the rules of engagement. FB: The rules of engagement, as far as I was concerned, were very constipating to try to win a war. SM: When you say that it was too late once they got all their clearances and everything, what had happened to those trucks? FB: They went under cover. They were in an area along the road coming down from Sam Neua, which is up north, which was a bad place. It seems like I got more anti aircraft fire up at Sam Nuea than any place except out on Chinese Road. The trucks were coming down and usually they didnt go in the daytime. They just went at night. But these guys were going down the road in the daytime. A convoy of maybe 15, 20 trucks. I watched them and finally they got out of this area where I could see them and they finally got back into the jungle cover and that was the end of that. SM: Were there other instances where you came across either large convoys of trucks or large movements of personnel and stuff like that where you could see it? FB: No. Not really. No. That was the one time I really remember was of that convoy. SM: How much would you know about what was on the ground when you were going to go fly a photo recon mission? Were you just given a briefing of where you were supposed to fly, I guess, the specific grid or wherever you were supposed to fly the mission over, or were you told what to look for in terms of a specific land feature or man made feature or whatever, bridges, roads? FB: In general, youre briefed for either to go up and follow, as I mentioned, to follow a specific route or road and assess maybe battle damage or try to see something, or maybe, to go up and map mosaic a specific area for maybe what could have been anything in there; a training sight or prisoner of war or whatever area. Then you just went back and forth over an area and mapped it. In general, we were just given a chart and on the chart was marked with a box that we were to fly exactly in or a road area and the road would be marked with grease pencil all the way through the whole area, that we were to follow it. Sometimes this took half an hour to an hour to do. If we had to mosaic an area, it could take all day. One of our targets, one of our missions was to go up and do the Golden Triangle where all the opium was growing where we had to go up and try to ascertain what was going on up there. That Golden Triangle area, which is the corner of Burma in Laos and China, it would take all day to map that. One day I was sent out to find, in that area, right real close to the Burmese border, what we thought was a refinery, refining for the opium. I found it. It was a beautiful white building. I remember it well. It was unbelievable, in the middle of the jungles and I mean it was like seeing a castle in the middle of the ocean. It was white and there were hardly any windows and thats about the only really unusual target type thing that I did find that I was told to go look for. SM: Do you know what happened to it? FB: No. I dont know anything more about it. I have no idea. SM: When you would do a mosaic, that would be, basically, you were kind of mapping an area, correct? FB: Yeah. Youre taking pictures, making a run back and forth, back and forth so that you cover the whole area but you overlap. Each pass overlaps a little bit of the picture of the one before for the reason so the photo interpreters are able to look at and get a three dimensional view of what youre looking at. If you just take a picture and look at it, you dont get 3D. SM: Once you finished a recce mission, youd go back, unload the film, and turn it in and that was the last of it? FB: Yeah. When we got back, we landed and the photo tech would get all the film and take the film over to the Air Force photo lab to get it developed immediately and we went to debrief where the photo interpreters were working, which was a little building close by. We went there and debriefed. SM: Would you see any of the photographs that you took? FB: Oh, sure! In fact, Ive still got a picture of the golf course I took where I first learned to play golf. I used to see a lot of my work and Id see when I fouled up. You cant lie. They know whether youre doing the job or not. You can come back and say, I got it, and they look at the pictures and say, No, you didnt. In general, we got what we were sent out to take. SM: That must have been helpful to be part of that debriefing so that, again, as you were continuously flying missions, you could incorporate whatever lessons from mistakes that you could. FB: Yeah. I guess you could. I dont really think that the debriefing was that much helpful. You just learned by doing it over and over. There was not that much. SM: You mentioned that the film would actually be developed at the Air Force lab, but was the product, that is, the photographs themselves, was that ever used by the Air Force or was it only in house? FB: Oh sure. It was used by the carrier planes and it was sent out to the perhaps, target. Theyd use it for target strikes at various places. The pictures were sent out to the users, being the Air Force and the Navy. I know for a fact, I was told that. SM: How about internal use? FB: Internally? I dont know. No. There was no need for it as far as I know of, ever. Not in Air America. SM: Were there any other particular missions, that is, as you were flying the photo reconnaissance missions that you recall? FB: Well, one mission, Dave Waters and I were out on the PDJ, that was the Plain of Jars. Known for these famous, huge 10, 13 foot jars, huge jars. They dont know why they were ever out there. There was a plain off of Long Chiang, 20 alternate, which was a secret base where we had a strip in the middle of the mountains. Just to the east of that was the Plain De Jars. That was basically controlled by the Lao, the enemy. We did an awful lot of mapping out there. One day, I was out there going back an forth doing whatever we were fragged to do and all of the sudden, the cockpit filled up with smoke and it was a real heavy, thick smoke and we couldnt breathe. It was poisonous type. So we both grabbed out masks, oxygen masks and put them on. I turned off the battery generators to see if that was it. I had Dave put his parachute on. We carried parachutes, we didnt wear them. I had Dave put his parachute on and get ready to bail out and of course he didnt want any part of that. I cant blame him but I didnt know what was going to happen. Finally, we opened the sliding hatches and we got the smoke out and I called up and made a call that 42 Zulu, we had a problem over PDJ and are going to have to go off the air that we had smoke in the cockpit and thought I had an electrical fire and that was it. A fellow by the name of Don Henthorn, he heard me and he got the message and I told him I was heading for the Alternate. We did. It was only maybe 20 minutes away, 10, 15 minutes at the most. We headed down to land there and just as I saw theres only one way into the Alternate. One way in, you land it in and you took off the opposite direction. Just as Im getting ready to land, there on the runway, we see a crashed T-28 that the Laos used for a fighter bomber. There were people running all around it. It was about a thousand. 20 Alternate was maybe 4,000 foot long, maybe a little longer, 4,500. But this crashed plane was about 1,500 feet. It was in the first third of the runway. I couldnt land in front of it safely so I said, Well, were going to land. Theres no radio, no nothing. So I slowed it way down and put the gear and flaps down and came right over the top of them. I know it scared them and I plunked it down and we stopped okay. We taxied. We didnt hurt anybody, thank goodness. I taxied into the ramp there and Stan Wilson who is a mech there who had been over at Savannakhet on the Volpars, he met us. I shut down and told him what happened. He went and looked in the wheel well and the battery, the Nicad battery had melted. It was almost ready to blow up, perhaps. The voltage regulator on the Volpar had failed and so the generators were just overcharging the Nicad and what happened is all the fumes, the toxic fumes, were coming up through the wheel well and the main spar into the cabin. So it actually, perhaps, saved us that that smoke came in or we might have been in bad shape. That was my carrier landing at the Alternate. One of my bosses, Jim Glaren, later told me he witnessed that and saw it. SM: This is the same Jim Glaren, he worked for the CIA, is that correct? FB: Yeah. SM: And hes been very active in helping get the CIA unit citation, I think. FG: I dont know much about that. Im going to the reunion. But, I wouldnt be a bit surprised. I used to fly Jim around and his boss Pat Landry an awful lot. I know Jim. Sure. In fact, every time I did any writing about the B-26 or anything, I always cleared it through Jim Glaren and Jim Rhyne. SM: That is writing that was FB: I helped some publishers write books. One Swedish gent wrote one on the B-26s. I gave him some information. I wrote some articles, helped some people write some articles. SM: And you also have one on the Air America site. FB: Yes. That was for Air America. The B-26. SM: When you were flying, at what point were you flying when Jim Rhyne was shot? FB: I was over the PDJ that day. It was the same area, doing photo mapping. It was in the middle of the afternoon, 1:00 or so when I heard Bob Main flying 71 Charlie, BTB like 420. What had happened was a couple of days before, one of our C-123s got shot down, missing. I remember Jim came, I was over at the bar and Jim came over and tapped me on the shoulder and said, Lets go. I went with him. We went up and looked for them in one of the planes. A few days later, Jim Rhyne and Bobby Harrell, the chief kicker, they had a bunch of leaflets printed up in Lao offering a reward for the plane and the pilots of that C-123. So, they had taken the back door, the back cargo hatch off of 71 Charlie and Jim and Billy Hester were dumping out the leaflets over in this area in Laos about 75 miles from us when they got hit. We think by 100mm. Just one round and I heard Bob give a may day and when I heard it, I made a decision to join up with him even though he was 75, 80 miles away. I two-blocked it, put it up to 100% and just picked up a heading figuring he would be heading back to Udorn. Fortunately, I hit it just right on the money because I found him. There he was so I joined up and it was an awful sight. I was really scared for them. Of course, I didnt know Jim Rhyne got hurt, but I did when I joined up because I could see Jim on the floor and Bobby holding him in the back of the plane, I thought, Oh, God please. Slow down Bob. I know youre in a hurry to get Jim back, but I was afraid that either the tail would come off or the plane would break up because the 100mm did an awful job. Fortunately, he was able to get it back okay and I called up and took care of all the communications for that and he landed and we got Jim to the hospital and saved his life, but he lost his leg. Bobby didnt get hurt, of course, Bob didnt get hit. It was a funny thing. I ferried 71 Charlie later as a Swiss aircraft to Switzerland after I left Air America. The 71 Charlie, I flew it an awful lot, but thats what happened that day with Jim. SM: While you were there, did many pilots get injured, many other pilots? FB: Oh, Lord yes. There were many got killed. Mainly chopper pilots and an awful lot of fixed wing pilots. Its just too many to even count. Its just an awful lot of people got not only injured. Berl, my buddy Berl King, he got a round right through the hand flying in a single engine. I think it was a helio courier. We had people get shot in the foot and the hand. The same thing as Saigon. There were an awful lot or people, a lot of men, lost their life. Thats probably one of the reasons theyre going to have, I guess, a dedication. I went to the Air America dedication in 1984 at Texas, at Dallas. They had a memorial. That was nice. I assume theyre going to have one, a unit citation in Las Vegas coming up next month. SM: Did you have a lot of calls while you were flying throughout Laos? Air Force pilots or Navy pilots that were shot down, may days? FB: Oh, sure. We could hear that. The choppers, the Air America choppers would go and pick them up an awful lot in Laos. Oh, yes. Yes. 42 Zulu, because we flew high, we relayed an awful lot. We relayed for the chopper pilots and the STOL pilots that were doing their work in Lao. 42 Zulu or 71 Charlie, whoever was flying that day doing the photo work, wed hear their ops normal. There was a procedure in Air America that every 30 minutes you made a call to one of the bases where there was an Air America radio station and give what was called an ops normal. You gave your position and your identification and your position and any pertinent fact that you wanted and then that would be relayed back to Udorn or Vientiane and they kept track of these planes and that way in case somebody didnt call in, they might be considered down and wed start looking for them. If that helps answer what you asked. SM: Yes, sir. Absolutely. Looking at your flight log that you provided for me, you mentioned specifically that in March of 72, you were there at 20 Alternate, Lang Chiang when they were expected to be overrun. FB: Yes. What happened is they were catching an awful lot of incoming. It finally got to the point where they were expecting to be overrun and so they decided to let us send up the Volpars with a load of fuel and fly, not an all-nighter, but close to it- a 10 hour flight. I was up on one mission one night when we started getting some anti aircraft fire. No big deal, just turn away from it. But that same night we got a call from Moonbeam- I think was the call sign for the C-130 or Commandship that was up over Lao, Air Force High Altitude Control craft saying that MiGs were coming into the area, for everybody to leave the area. I didnt. I said, Well, Ill stay here and try to relay for them. Ill just drop down to right over the top of the mountains, because I figured the MiG, he wouldnt come down and get me because I would be in the ground clutter. If he was stupid enough, foolish enough to try it, he might fly into a mountain top. I knew a little bit, from my background, about the radar and knew that he couldnt get us. We stayed in the area. I stayed there and kept quiet and turned the lights off. Of course, I had the lights off anyway. In about, I dont know, 30 minutes or whatever, he finally left. It was no big deal. SM: I would imagine there was a significant amount of traffic coming out of Long Chiang then for that night, [the eleventh hour] relay mission you flew. FB: No. As a matter fact, there was not a lot of traffic. You never flew at Long Chiang at night. Theres no lights, number one. Every thing was done in the daylight. Number two, I saw some incoming and that sort of thing, but as far as radio traffic is concerned, I cant remember on any of those missions, but I dont really know. I cant remember if it was an automatic relaying device we had on. I think it was. I dont think it went through the cockpit like it did on the HARP project, so I cant answer that. SM: I was curious, did you encounter many MiGs? FB: I didnt even see them. That was a one-time deal. On some of the missions I had, we had cover because when I would be going up by Sam Neua or doing something like that on a special mission, they expected the MiGs to come after us and the F-4s would be out high cap for us and we would know that they were up there to help us, but I never had to use them. Speaking of the F-4s, one time, again I think it was Dave Waters and I were out on the PDJ and we were up around 10,000 feet and the next thing I know, I look over the top of us and theres a flight of four F-4s. I used to fly the F-4s so I know them real well. They didnt miss us. They were maybe 300 foot above us and obviously didnt see us because they made a TACAN drop, which is an instrument-like drop. On the count of mark they all dropped their bombs. We saw a whole bunch of bombs go floating down in front of us. I was some kind of perturbed with the Air Force that day because there was no warning of a TACAN drop on UHF and VHF. We heard and we monitored that all the time. SM: When you would encounter something like that would you go back and make a report about it? FB: I did. I didnt make a big deal out of it but I did say that somebody fouled up somewhere. SM: Did you ever have other close encounters with other aircraft? FB: No. I cant say that I can remember anything. I remember watching a B-52 bomb drop in Vietnam once. I was flying off the coast and I never saw the B-52, but I think they called it an arc light. I heard the warning on the frequency, on emergency and looked off and saw the fantastic bomb drop. One time, the Missouri was off shore. I remember that one. I was also flying up. That time, I was headed up north by Quang Nhi or Quin Nhon, in that area when I saw the big battleship out there and he was sending his 16 inchers inland. I could almost see them. They were about the size of a Voltzwagen, the bomb. Boy, that was something else. SM: I was curious if you knew during your photo Recce missions if you were supporting at all Lam Son 719, if any of that activity? FB: Im not familiar with that. SM: In the Tchepone area? FB: I was in Tchepone an awful lot. We did an awful lot of work down the road. There was a pipeline and supposedly a fuel line and that sort of stuff. We did a lot of work in Tchepone area. I only got a little bit of fire over there. SM: Were there any other missions or any other issues youd like to discuss concerning your time in Thailand and flying over Laos? FB: Well, at one time, I did go out on the PDJ. We owned it for about three weeks. I think it was in 1969, I took Ambassador Godly out there, U.S. Ambassador to Laos. We landed on the PDJ. I remember seeing one of the jars being air lifted out of there. That was the only time I ever landed on the PDJ. There were all kinds of planes crashed on it. That one time, that was in November of, like I say, 69. SM: Why were they airlifting out one of the jars? Do you know? FB: Obviously, somebody wanted it for their collection. I dont know who it was for or never heard about it. It took a sky crane to get it out. They weigh tons, a couple of tons. Its huge. SM: You left in March of 73. FB: Yeah. My last mission was March the 2nd of 1973. Berl King and I, he flew with me and I flew with him on my first one and on my last one, he flew with me and then I left. That was the end of my flying with Air America. SM: Just before you left, there was, of course, the Christmas bombing campaign in Christmas of 72 and then the Paris Peace Accords were signed in January of 73. What did you hear about that and what did you think? FB: I thought it was great. I thought it was the end of it and I thought it was all going to be over. Thats why I figured its time I done what I felt was necessary. It looked to me like the time to leave, so I left. They were talking about cutting the pay and I didnt think they should cut the pay. It was just talk, though. I dont know whether they ever did or not. I didnt like the idea of that. Although I never went to work for them for the money. I never flew for money all my life. It was for the love of flying, but still, on the other hand, you want to get paid what you think youre worth in whatever you do. So, that had some influence on me. Definitely when President Nixon said and the Peace Accord was signed, I figured it was time for me to leave. As fate would have it, Pat Thorson, who is a photo pilot, came later. He got shot and killed right after I left in 42 Zulu. Danny Thomas brought him home. He got a small arms fire right through the head and died instantly. Im not saying that could have been me because I dont know every thing about it, but it just shows you it did happen. Yes. We lost one photo pilot from small arms fire. SM: How did you feel and what did you think when you left about the war in Vietnam and Laos? Did you feel like youd accomplished anything? FB: No. I dont really think. It looked to me like it was going to end la Korea with nothing accomplished and thats what I felt the way it was when I left. I wasnt surprised and Im never surprised anymore because thats our philosophy of winning a war was much different than when I was a young man, a boy, in World War II. All the wars we thought before, I thought we won. Now, I dont see where anybody wins. Its a shame to get into wars. Thats the problem. SM: Has your prospective about the war changed over the years at all? If so, how has it changed the most? FB: No. Its just the way I always thought it was. I always thought we were right to go over there and do what we did. We tried. We did our best. It didnt work. Every thing remains the same. Im sorry that there was such a loss of life on both sides, but I can understand the reason for the war. Just like I said, its just a shame it had to happen in the first place. Like a friend of mine said, its a shame that we have the wars because the wars are usually started by people who dont fight the wars. They send others to fight them. Maybe if they had to go fight, there would be no more war. SM: You mentioned earlier, the pay issue. I forgot to ask you, while you were working in Air America, do you recall any activity concerning unions or unionizing? FB: Yes. There was. There was a union attempt and it was established and our pay went up considerably. The Union for East Pilot Association I think it was called. For a couple of years. Youve got to remember there was a seniority system at Air America and it was usually on the basis of your hiring date. The people that were hired earliest were the senior. They got choices to fly various aircraft or transfer to various aircraft. In the case of the Volpar, special projects under Jim Rhyne and even though Jim Rhyne left and became chief pilot at Vientiane, special projects was still his personal, he was the head of it with Berl King acting for him. The union couldnt touch, for instance, me or Gene Thomason. Berl was very senior, but I wasnt. There were many people senior to me. They couldnt come in and take me out because that was just part of the deal. This was a sore subject with some but it was never mentioned to me face to face. SM: What did you think of the union activity in general? FB: I thought it was a very good idea. I think the union had a very good idea. I think unions are good until they get to the point where they become abusive as the owners. Its just like in the only reason a union ever came about in the first place is because the owners were possibly greedy and selfish. Im not saying that the customer was greedy and selfish, but I do think its possible either end where one side or the other gets too selfish, then it loses what its all about. The unions wed all know, or I hope most people realize, that if you have an owner who takes care of his employees and theyre happy, theres no need for a union. SM: If you could go back and do it over again, would you change anything? FB: Yeah. Id just make sure the communications got back soon enough or give me some rockets and bombs and I could have taken out the trucks. SM: Is there anything else youd like to talk about today? FB: Not really. Im just very proud that I was able to be a Naval Aviator and then test pilot and then work for Air America. I was almost always working for Uncle Sam. SM: Well, thank you very much. This will end the interview with Mr. Frank Bonansinga.   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