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FACE THE NATION

Sunday, April 17, 2005

GUESTS: Representative DAVID DREIER (R-CA) Chairman, Rules Committee Representative CHARLES RANGEL, (D-NY) Ranking Member, Ways and Means Committee JAN CRAWFORD GREENBURG Legal Correspondent The Chicago Tribune

MODERATOR: BOB SCHIEFFER - CBS News

This is a rush transcript provided for the information and convenience of the press. Accuracy is not guaranteed.

In case of doubt, please check with FACE THE NATION - CBS NEWS 202-457-4481

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Face the Nation (CBS News) - Sunday, April 17, 2005

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BOB SCHIEFFER, host:

Today on FACE THE NATION, the stock market is dropping, the price of gas keeps going up. The war in Iraq goes on, yet Congress has tied itself up in a debate over House Majority Leader Tom DeLay's future and changing Senate rules to outlaw filibusters. Can the majority leader lead effectively while under a cloud of ethics problems? Should he step down? What does it all mean to you, the taxpayer? We'll talk to a member from each party, Republican David Dreier of California and Democrat Charles Rangel of New York.

Then we'll talk with Jan Crawford Greenburg, legal correspondent for the Chicago Tribune about Republican Senate leader Bill Frist and his plan that changed Senate rules to make it easier to confirm controversial judges.

Finally, I'll have a word on a wheeler-dealer insider with the staying power of crabgrass.

But first, the Congress in turmoil while the country's problems mount on FACE THE NATION.

Announcer: FACE THE NATION with CBS News chief Washington correspondent Bob Schieffer. And now from CBS News in Washington, Bob Schieffer.

SCHIEFFER: Good morning again. Joining us from New York, Congressman Charles Rangel. He, of course, is the ranking Democrat on the House Ways and Means Committee. Here in the studio, the chairman of the House Rules Committee and a member of the Republican leadership in the House, Congressman David Dreier.

Gentlemen, welcome once again.

Representative DAVID DREIER (Republican, California; Chairman, House Rules Committee): Always good to be with you, Bob.

Representative CHARLES RANGEL (Democrat, New York; House Ways and Means Committee): Good to be with you, Bob.

SCHIEFFER: We are going to talk today about what's going on in the House and whether the House is able to do anything or will it continue to be just tied up in knots over what to do about your leader, Congressman Dreier, Congressman DeLay? And perhaps we should just set the stage. By the controversy about Congressman DeLay is overseas trips that he's taken in the past and who paid for them, who he took money from and the connections between that and how he voted on various issues, and also his close association with a lobbyist who is now under federal investigation over whether or not he did something illegal in charging Indian tribes in the $60-million range for lobbying things.

Has Congressman DeLay--Congressman Dreier, has he done anything wrong?

Rep. DREIER: Well, Bob, everything that you said sounds absolutely horrible. But you know, and everyone in the Congress knows, that Tom DeLay has not been found in violation of any rule, regulation, statute or law at all.

SCHIEFFER: Yeah, but he's being investigated.

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Rep. DREIER: Well, the thing is he wants to be investigated. He wants to have a chance to clear his name by going before the House Ethics Committee so that whatever question is out there can, in fact, be addressed. I mean, I really do believe, Bob, that if you look at where we are in this issue, it's amazing that it's the Democratic leadership that has really decided to demonize Tom DeLay. It's been a great sport in this town for a while. And what has happened is we, over the last few months, have been able to pass legislation with rank-and-file support from Democrats.

This week we got 302 votes on the bankruptcy legislation to try and bring some common sense back to it. If you look at the repeal of the death tax, if you look at the other issues that we have been able to address, my big issue, the border security. We had 42 Democrats who joined with us. So rank-and-file Democrats are helping us work in a bipartisan way to get things done while the Democratic leader opposes all this legislation that enjoys bipartisan support and is really standing in way and trying to create this issue of Tom DeLay as really a smoke screen here.

SCHIEFFER: Well, let's go to Congressman Rangel. Do you agree with what Congressman Dreier has just said?

Rep. DREIER: Of course he does.

SCHIEFFER: He sounds like things are just going very well up there.

Rep. RANGEL: I had no idea that Dave Dreier could be so creative. I think the most serious damage, not just to the Republicans, but to the House of Representatives is what Dave Dreier and the Rules Committee did. The three Republicans on that committee that had the nerve to admonish the majority leader DeLay were kicked off of the Rules Committee, and then they put in another rule. I mean...

Rep. DREIER: Charlie, Charlie, let's finish that.

Rep. RANGEL: Please don't do this, Dave.

Rep. DREIER: No, no, no. You're talking about the Ethics Committee and the rules Committee.

Rep. RANGEL: It's not fair for you to do this.

Rep. DREIER: No, Charlie, be straight. They're not members of the Rules Committee, it's the House Ethics Committee you're talking about.

Rep. RANGEL: But it was the Rules Committee that allowed this change to take place...

Rep. DREIER: The Rules Committee...

Rep. RANGEL: ...that says--David...

Rep. DREIER: Go ahead.

Rep. RANGEL: This is not a debate until I finish at least, David. What happens is that you cannot get a review of the conduct of anybody, Republican or Democrat, unless you are able to get a Republican to vote against DeLay or to vote against a Republican. This is not the way

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it's been. It's been five Democrats and five Republicans. And for you to say that DeLay wants this aired, he doesn't need the Ethics Committee. They call him the hammer because he's the hammer on Democrats, and he's the hammer on moderate Republicans. And your committee could change this and restore the integrity that the Ethics Committee used to have. And that's the biggest thing.

Rep. DREIER: Well, Charlie, let me tell you...

Rep. RANGEL: I'm not saying if DeLay is guilty or not because this is not a court of law.

Rep. DREIER: Good.

Rep. RANGEL: But what he is doing by stonewalling these accusations, the clouds of corruption are not just on the Republicans but the entire House of Representatives.

Rep. DREIER: He is not only not stonewalling, Charlie, he very much wants to come forward and address these things. What we want to do, and I know you share our goal of trying to ensure that we bring partisanship back to the ethics process itself. If you look at the reforms that we put into place at the beginning of this Congress, we simply say that you have to have bipartisanship on these investigations. And what's happened in years past? Usually when investigations have been pursued, they've been unanimous votes, all 10 members, Democrats, Republicans pursuing.

Rep. RANGEL: Well, why did he knock off the Republicans that were critical of DeLay? Why did you kick them off of the committee?

Rep. DREIER: I don't know what you're talking about as far as being kicked off.

Rep. RANGEL: You don't know. You don't know. No, you kicked them off the committee because they were bipartisan.

Rep. DREIER: Let me just tell you, the people on that Committee, Congress Doc Hastings, who serves on the Rules Committee and is a new chairman of this committee...

Rep. RANGEL: OK.

Rep. DREIER: ...has reached out to the Democratic leader, Alan Mollohan, trying to come to a bipartisan compromise on this.

Rep. RANGEL: What happened to the old chairman?

Rep. DREIER: He had term limits, and he was out.

Rep. RANGEL: Why did you...

Rep. DREIER: We're trying to put together bipartisanship on this, and Hastings has reached out to the Democrats.

SCHIEFFER: Let me just reach--before we get too mired in the details here, let's look at what former Speaker Newt Gingrich said about Tom DeLay, because he didn't say it's the fault of the Democrats. Here's the way he put it when asked, `Where are Tom DeLay's troubles?' Listen to this.

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Former Representative NEWT GINGRICH (Former House Speaker): (From videotape) That's the famous Hillary Clinton defense. This is the vast left-wing, you know, conspiracy, as opposed to her description of a vast right-wing conspiracy. DeLay's problem isn't with the Democrats. DeLay's problem's with the country. And so DeLay has a challenge, I think, to lay out a case that the country comes to believe, that the country decides is legitimate. If he does that, he's fine. SCHIEFFER: Well, now let me just ask you, Congressman Dreier, because what you're saying is he ought to go before the Ethics Committee and do this. So far the Congress is gridlocked in this partisan debate that the Ethics Committee can't actually come together. Whose ever fault that is, would it be better for him to call a news conference or go on a television show or something of that nature and just lay out to people what it is that he has or hasn't done... Rep. DREIER: Bob... SCHIEFFER: ...as Newt Gingrich says? Rep. DREIER: Bob, you began this broadcast by talking about energy prices. I mean, my constituents are concerned about the cost of gasoline. We're going to be passing this week, with bipartisan support, an energy bill on top of all these other great things that we've been able to do. And this issue is a distraction. Why should Tom DeLay have--go on a television news program when, in fact, we have a structure in place? It is the House Ethics Committee. They are the entity that is designed to deal with this. And all these charges have been leveled and we know--I mean, the moment that the Democrat who's the leader on the House Ethics Committee, Alan Mollohan, refused to compromise with Doc Hastings, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, the political arm of the Democrats, came out with a Web site that is designed to smear Tom DeLay. SCHIEFFER: Well... Rep. DREIER: Let's put this Ethics Committee into place and let Tom DeLay come forward and, with the sobriety of a very thoughtful Ethics Committee member--you know, members dealing with him, rather than doing this on a television program or, you know, in some circus, let him do it with those people deliberating over this issue so that he can, in fact, clear his name. SCHIEFFER: Let me ask you about something--and I want to get Congressman Rangel's view on this. You know, obviously, earlier this year, earlier this month, there was some controversy over the remarks that Congressman DeLay made about the federal judges in saying they would face retribution for their behavior. This was in conjunction with the Terri Schiavo case. Last night, speaking to the National Rifle Association, Congressman DeLay said--and I'm quoting here an Associated Press account: "When a man is in trouble or is in a good fight, you want to have your friends around, preferably armed. So I feel good." What is your reaction to that, Congressman? Rep. DREIER: Well, my reaction is, first of all, Tom DeLay, like most of the rest of us, are supporters of the Second Amendment to the Bill of Rights and believe in the right to keep and bear arms. But I will tell you that--let me just tell you the... SCHIEFFER: Well, don't you find that rather inflammatory?

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